G'day all,
Some of you may know that i have recently installed an injected VR Clubsport 5.0 litre into my lx torana. Behind this i have a T700 auto trans, custom 3" 1/4' tailshaft, and in a few weeks i'll have my recently purchased VL Turbo Diff in.
The VL diff has disc brakes whereas you all know the lx had drums on the rear. My question is, what things do i have to do, to be able to run the VL discs on the rear, and the original torana discs up front?
Does this require upgrading the master cylinder, brake booster, brake lines?
I won't have the diff for a few more weeks but any help and info would be most appreciated.
Thanks,
Rhys.
Lx Brake Upgrade
Started by
_rhysandhisLJ_
, Nov 02 2006 08:50 PM
26 replies to this topic
#2
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 02 November 2006 - 10:48 PM
This thread covers most of the issues.
http://www.gmh-toran...topic=6308&st=0
Toddy's picture links should be.
Problem
Solution
Solution
Solution
Solution
I have just completed my 9 inch with VN Commodore disks and hope to fit it this weekend.
Changes required.
1. New steel brake lines with Torana threads where the flexible hose connects from the car to the diff and metric threads to connect to the caliper hoses. If the commodore brake lines still fit then your could get a new flexible hose made with a Torana fitting one end and a commodore fitting the other to connect from the diff to the car.
2. Remove the rubber valve under the brass acorn where the rear brake line connects to the master cylinder.
3. 15 inch or larger rims to clear the calipers.
Solutions to caliper/shock clearance problems.
1. Increasing the diff width by 20mm should avoid the problem.
If I had known about this problem when I ordered the diff housing I would have made it 1460mm instead of 1440mm wide. This would give an extra 10mm clearance between the shock and the caliper. If you are planning on running commodore rims then making the diff wider would compensate for the offset differences. If you are getting custom rims made then loosing 10mm off the dish is no big deal.
2. Relocating the shock.
I looked at relocating the shock on my car using commodore shock mounts but found that the shock would bottom out before the diff hit the bump stops. I figured this would destroy the adjustment mechanism on my Koni shocks so it was not an option.
3. Mount the calipers in front of the axle by swapping the backing plates from left to right.
This solves the shock problem but then causes problems with connecting the handbrake. I am not aware of anyone with this setup and the handbrake connected but it probably can be done.
4a. Modify the backing plate to mount the caliper at approximately 45 degrees by re-drilling the axle mount holes and moving the handbrake pad pillar.
I was not 100% comfortable with this method as the backing plate has flat area's for the handbrake pads to sit on at 90, 180, 270 and 360. When the holes are moved 45 degrees then the flat area's are in the wrong place.
4b. Modify the backing plate to mount the caliper at approximately 45 degrees by slicing the caliper mount ring and rotating then welding back in place.
I decided on this method for my diff and had it done by VEEM engineering.
http://www.gmh-toran...topic=6308&st=0
Toddy's picture links should be.
Problem
Solution
Solution
Solution
Solution
I have just completed my 9 inch with VN Commodore disks and hope to fit it this weekend.
Changes required.
1. New steel brake lines with Torana threads where the flexible hose connects from the car to the diff and metric threads to connect to the caliper hoses. If the commodore brake lines still fit then your could get a new flexible hose made with a Torana fitting one end and a commodore fitting the other to connect from the diff to the car.
2. Remove the rubber valve under the brass acorn where the rear brake line connects to the master cylinder.
3. 15 inch or larger rims to clear the calipers.
Solutions to caliper/shock clearance problems.
1. Increasing the diff width by 20mm should avoid the problem.
If I had known about this problem when I ordered the diff housing I would have made it 1460mm instead of 1440mm wide. This would give an extra 10mm clearance between the shock and the caliper. If you are planning on running commodore rims then making the diff wider would compensate for the offset differences. If you are getting custom rims made then loosing 10mm off the dish is no big deal.
2. Relocating the shock.
I looked at relocating the shock on my car using commodore shock mounts but found that the shock would bottom out before the diff hit the bump stops. I figured this would destroy the adjustment mechanism on my Koni shocks so it was not an option.
3. Mount the calipers in front of the axle by swapping the backing plates from left to right.
This solves the shock problem but then causes problems with connecting the handbrake. I am not aware of anyone with this setup and the handbrake connected but it probably can be done.
4a. Modify the backing plate to mount the caliper at approximately 45 degrees by re-drilling the axle mount holes and moving the handbrake pad pillar.
I was not 100% comfortable with this method as the backing plate has flat area's for the handbrake pads to sit on at 90, 180, 270 and 360. When the holes are moved 45 degrees then the flat area's are in the wrong place.
4b. Modify the backing plate to mount the caliper at approximately 45 degrees by slicing the caliper mount ring and rotating then welding back in place.
I decided on this method for my diff and had it done by VEEM engineering.
Edited by AndyCullen, 02 November 2006 - 10:57 PM.
#3
TerrA LX
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Posted 02 November 2006 - 11:29 PM
thanx A.C.
Mods; maybe we could stick this or something like it someware for everyone
Mods; maybe we could stick this or something like it someware for everyone
#4
_rorym_
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Posted 02 November 2006 - 11:56 PM
If AC had just taken a R31 Skyline B/W diff and welded the brackets on and slapped it under his car he wouldnt have any of these problems. 1460mm exactly!!!perfect..and an unbreakable diff with full spool and stock 28 spline std axles...Oh..plus...Pssst!..It already comes with rear disc brakes that work perfect with Holden 25mm master cylinder.
R
P,S. For an extra $195 my guys will weld and re drill that axles with any stud pattern you want.
R
P,S. For an extra $195 my guys will weld and re drill that axles with any stud pattern you want.
Edited by rorym, 02 November 2006 - 11:58 PM.
#5
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 12:34 AM
I was going to use a B/W diff until I got permits for an LS2.
I am not confident the B/W will handle 400+hp so I went 31 spline 9 inch. This is a fully legal road car so the full spool is not an option.
I am not confident the B/W will handle 400+hp so I went 31 spline 9 inch. This is a fully legal road car so the full spool is not an option.
Edited by AndyCullen, 03 November 2006 - 12:44 AM.
#6
TerrA LX
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 12:59 AM
only probs with B/W and high H.P. with good traction is tearing the tubes out of the housing. most other parts will survive.
yours is definatly worth a sticky or added to the tech section rorym.
yours is definatly worth a sticky or added to the tech section rorym.
Edited by ALX76, 03 November 2006 - 01:00 AM.
#7
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 09:43 AM
I forgot to mention that you also need to make a new handbrake cable. I plan to cut up the Torana and Commodore cables to make up a prototype and then get a new cable made by Flexible Drive Agencies.
http://www.fdrive.com.au/
http://www.fdrive.com.au/
#8
_rorym_
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 10:01 AM
We have 600HP sprint cars running the above here and no one has broken one in 3 years I am told. The Nissan has a dual handrake system that clamps the discs..unlike the VL set up...and it also hooks straight up to the LH handbrake with its central bracket. I will post the tech article with pics as I get closer to having it finished.
R
R
#9
Dr Terry
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 10:16 AM
Hi Guys.
AndyCullen said "15 inch or larger rims to clear the calipers."
AFAIK 14" wheels will clear any Commodore rear calipers (up to VT at least) & will also clear the R31 Pintara/Skyline rears as well.
Dr Terry.
AndyCullen said "15 inch or larger rims to clear the calipers."
AFAIK 14" wheels will clear any Commodore rear calipers (up to VT at least) & will also clear the R31 Pintara/Skyline rears as well.
Dr Terry.
#10
_LX8VD69_
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 10:25 AM
i have 14 inch rims on my torana and im running vn discs that i bolted straight on to my banjo and im still running torana stud pattern, the brake lines do bolt together with out any dramas or leaks, yes i know ones supposed to be metric and the others imperial but they are soooooooooooooooo close it seems to work. the only problem is the fact you need to put some 1/4 spacers between the back of the axle rotor and the oil seal. 
#11
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 11:53 AM
I had 15" rims for my test setup as the front brake conversion I have requires 15" rims. I was under the impression that 15" rims were also required for the rear brakes but if they came out with 14" and other people have fitted 14" then I stand corrected.Hi Guys.
AndyCullen said "15 inch or larger rims to clear the calipers."
AFAIK 14" wheels will clear any Commodore rear calipers (up to VT at least) & will also clear the R31 Pintara/Skyline rears as well.
Dr Terry.
The second solution image link in the first post is wrong. It should be the following.
Solution 2
#12
_Chamois hatch_
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 12:32 PM
yeah 14 inch rims minimum, i dummy fitted 13 inch rims and they JUST fowled on the caliper and backing plate, so if you're ambitious enough than you could do away with the backing plates and shave the calipers a bit (just a TINY bit), not that i condone this but like i said, its possible.
cheers
john
cheers
john
#13
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 12:40 PM
I expect that the sprint cars are running locked diffs which as you know are not a legal option for a road car.We have 600HP sprint cars running the above here and no one has broken one in 3 years I am told.
It is the ability of the LSD to cope with the HP that was in question. It would appear that Detroit Lockers are available for the B/W 78 28 spline but apparently only for 3.08 ratio. ( I gather it is something to do with the size of the crown gear )
http://www.locked-dr....au/detroit.htm
Another point in favor of the B/W diff conversion is that it is significantly lighter than the 9" .
#14
_rorym_
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 03:38 PM
I find that strange..its ust different teeth involved isnt it? The OD of the C/Ws are all the same I thought?
R
R
#15
TerrA LX
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 05:33 PM
hemisphere is thinner the further you go lower from 3.08 to house more teeth.
seen an LJ with bout 500hp tear a tube from the housing running slicks, and it is not uncommon to happen as they are only plug welded in.
seen an LJ with bout 500hp tear a tube from the housing running slicks, and it is not uncommon to happen as they are only plug welded in.
#16
_rhysandhisLJ_
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 01:07 PM
Thanks heaps for that guys,
Once the new diff arrives i'll take some photo's of the installation, also i'll do a write-up on any of the problems i encounter with the braking system.
Cheers,
Rhys.
Once the new diff arrives i'll take some photo's of the installation, also i'll do a write-up on any of the problems i encounter with the braking system.
Cheers,
Rhys.
#17
_rhysandhisLJ_
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Posted 05 January 2007 - 08:14 AM
G'day,
my new lsd b/w diff is now in my torana. new brake lines have been made up, they are all connected properly and don't leak at all.
I'm have a problem bleeding the brakes, as the brake pedal only gets stiff once i pump it a few times.
My local auto bloke suggests that when doing this disc brake rear conversion i should remove the proportional valve. What is this? and how will it benefit my braking system?
Does anyone think this is why i can't bleed the brakes properly... i'm sure all the air is out of the lines...
Cheers,
Rhys.
my new lsd b/w diff is now in my torana. new brake lines have been made up, they are all connected properly and don't leak at all.
I'm have a problem bleeding the brakes, as the brake pedal only gets stiff once i pump it a few times.
My local auto bloke suggests that when doing this disc brake rear conversion i should remove the proportional valve. What is this? and how will it benefit my braking system?
Does anyone think this is why i can't bleed the brakes properly... i'm sure all the air is out of the lines...
Cheers,
Rhys.
Edited by lxsl76, 05 January 2007 - 08:16 AM.
#18
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 05 January 2007 - 09:44 AM
Rhys,
The rubber valve under the brass acorn is referred to as the spring and check valve in this picture. The valve is only required for drum brakes and if left in will cause disc brakes to drag.
The proportioning valve should be retained. It is the cylindrical object with all the brake lines attached to it.
Its purpose is to prevent the rear wheels from locking under heavy braking. I do not know if there is any internal difference between the drum brake prop valve and the disc brake prop valve. I had mine rebuilt and told them I was using rear discs.
It will take a considerable amount of bleeding to remove all the air from the lines. You can often gravity bleed the brakes to get the bulk of the air out. Open the furthest bleeder with a line connected to a container and check the master cylinder is full every couple of minutes.
The rubber valve under the brass acorn is referred to as the spring and check valve in this picture. The valve is only required for drum brakes and if left in will cause disc brakes to drag.
The proportioning valve should be retained. It is the cylindrical object with all the brake lines attached to it.
Its purpose is to prevent the rear wheels from locking under heavy braking. I do not know if there is any internal difference between the drum brake prop valve and the disc brake prop valve. I had mine rebuilt and told them I was using rear discs.
It will take a considerable amount of bleeding to remove all the air from the lines. You can often gravity bleed the brakes to get the bulk of the air out. Open the furthest bleeder with a line connected to a container and check the master cylinder is full every couple of minutes.
Edited by AndyCullen, 05 January 2007 - 09:53 AM.
#19
_rhysandhisLJ_
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Posted 05 January 2007 - 10:43 AM
Thanks Andy,
I'll try to pull out the check valve tonight, but if i do remember correctly, the fittings into the master cylinder are in rather tight, hopefully i can do it without damaging them. I'll post a reply tonight and let you all know how i go.
Thanks again,
Rhys.
I'll try to pull out the check valve tonight, but if i do remember correctly, the fittings into the master cylinder are in rather tight, hopefully i can do it without damaging them. I'll post a reply tonight and let you all know how i go.
Thanks again,
Rhys.
#20
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 05 January 2007 - 01:10 PM
I would recommend purchasing flare nut spanners for working with brake and fuel lines. If the flare nut is tight then an open end spanner will most likely damage it. The master cylinder has 9/16 and 1/2 flare nuts.
Once the brake line is removed from the master cylinder the brass bush is removed by screwing a self tapper into it then pulling it out with a pair of pliers.
Once the brake line is removed from the master cylinder the brass bush is removed by screwing a self tapper into it then pulling it out with a pair of pliers.
#21
_rhysandhisLJ_
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Posted 08 January 2007 - 09:21 PM
Cheers Andy,
I've removed the master cylinder, couldn't rip out the brass bush so i took it into the brake place while i was in wodonga, they pulled it out, pulled out the rubber valve and spring, replaced the brass bush and charged me $2. Bargain hey.
Tomorrow arvo i'll install the master cylinder back onto the booster, reconnect all the lines and gravity bleed the system.
Thanks for your help.
Rhys.
I've removed the master cylinder, couldn't rip out the brass bush so i took it into the brake place while i was in wodonga, they pulled it out, pulled out the rubber valve and spring, replaced the brass bush and charged me $2. Bargain hey.
Tomorrow arvo i'll install the master cylinder back onto the booster, reconnect all the lines and gravity bleed the system.
Thanks for your help.
Rhys.
#22
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 09 January 2007 - 02:18 AM
Rhys,
Once you have finished bleeding the brakes you have to reset the brake warning light switch. This is done by removing the switch on the proportioning valve, pressing on the brake pedal and then installing the switch.
Once you have finished bleeding the brakes you have to reset the brake warning light switch. This is done by removing the switch on the proportioning valve, pressing on the brake pedal and then installing the switch.
#23
_rhysandhisLJ_
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Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:56 AM
Hey,
Thanks again Andy, i'll make sure i reset it after work this arvo.
Cheers,
Rhys.
Thanks again Andy, i'll make sure i reset it after work this arvo.
Cheers,
Rhys.
#24
_Tuflx8_
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Posted 21 May 2010 - 07:24 PM
Does anyone know how this guy ended up with his brake conversion with BW diff on the rear and the stock Torana discs up front? It seems like when I asked if this was possible for my car, everyone thought I was crazy! Just would like to know.
#25
350mick
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Posted 10 August 2014 - 01:51 PM
Hi all
I am building a LX hatch
What I want to do is put VZ HSV breaks on
My first thought was VT breaks but why not get the newer break technology
Has anybody done this
Can anybody give me ideas or advise
I want to do this because the HQ 1 Tonner I have cooks the breaks when used hard
So I would like better breaks for the torana
Thanks all
I am building a LX hatch
What I want to do is put VZ HSV breaks on
My first thought was VT breaks but why not get the newer break technology
Has anybody done this
Can anybody give me ideas or advise
I want to do this because the HQ 1 Tonner I have cooks the breaks when used hard
So I would like better breaks for the torana
Thanks all
Edited by 350mick, 10 August 2014 - 01:53 PM.
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