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Race Craft - Heel and Toe Braking


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#1 LXChev366

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 10:36 AM

I hi-jacked Sam's thread of him at Phillip Island talking about heel and toe braking.... so I thought I would start a new thread...

I learnt the skill years ago when I used to Rally Datto 16's. It was the best place to learn, as you are out there for hours. It helped me once, as I had stalling issues at idle... so as I was coming up to a tight bend, I could keep the engine buzzing....

A question which got all this started...

What is the best way to set up the pedals for heel and toe?

A. Toe on the brake pedal and "blip" the throttle with your heel?

B. Or heel on brake pedal and "blip" the throttle with your toe?

At the moment my pedals make it easier with the first option but it is awkward.

Answer - Option A.
Yep its awkward.. you have to practice it...it only really works when you are hard on the brakes... practicing is hard on normal road driving and as you dont push the brake pedal hard enough to get your heel across to blip the throttle.

next time you watch rally/V8 racing etc and they show you footage of the feet watch that... another thing we do prior to braking is "tap" the brake pedal with the left foot to make sure we have a hard pedal.. and to close up any pad knock off that you may have... so yep your feet are dancin
I have heard Niel Crompton say before that racing is a hand and feet skill!!

Found a perfect video... V8 supercar... sounds ace to... as I said, notice he taps the brake pedal with his left foot as I mentioned... enjoy!

Of course because it is a V8 Supercar, he doesnt use the clutch sometimes to "up shift".. he just flat shifts it... not recommended with a normal type gearbox.

http://jalopnik.com/...rack-256735.php


here is another good site... with explanation and short vid.

http://www.drivingfa...eel_and_toe.htm

one good thing that site ^ mentions is correct foot wear... heel and toe braking is very hard with big work boots... race boots make it a lot easier. Another thing I make sure of is I tie the shoe laces and fold away any loops... as it is possible to catch your foot behind a pedal with a lace. Also a foot rest for your left foot is a good idea, It gives you better balance (brace) through high G turns and it puts your left foot at the same level as the clutch pedal, it saves your foot getting caught under the pedal as you lift it off the floor, to place it on the clutch.

Pete

Can mods sticky this please.

Edited by LXChev366, 08 December 2007 - 10:40 AM.


#2 Heath

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 11:12 AM

Also a foot rest for your left foot is a good idea, It gives you better balance (brace) through high G turns and it puts your left foot at the same level as the clutch pedal, it saves your foot getting caught under the pedal as you lift it off the floor, to place it on the clutch.

Yeah.... Grrrr stupid foot-parking brake in LH/LX

Thanks for the link, that is marvelous foot work, very inspired.

#3 LXChev366

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 11:18 AM

My Race LX dosent have the 4th pedal of course... as most race cars dont need a hand brake.

#4 JBM

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 11:19 AM

One thing I noticed is the shape of the accelerator pedal, it has extra width at the bottom so that the edge of the pedal is close to the brake.

James

#5 rodomo

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 11:28 AM

Cheers for that, another little task to do. :spoton:

I wonder if he could have pushed the accelerator any harder? :blink:

#6 Racehatch

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 11:35 AM

Yeah its definately something that requires practice, to the point the you dont even realise you are doing it. I've got my pedals setup, and I can do it easily enough, the problem I find is that when I'm in a race situation, I'm concentrating so hard on everything else that I forget about it... It will come with more experience, building my racecraft I guess you could say.

The other thing is that I run a toploader gearbox, which are notoriously hard to shift, and quite often miss the 3rd back to 2nd (or 4th to 2nd) change, and I suspect that doing the heel/toe will help.... practice, practice, practice!

#7 rodomo

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 11:42 AM

My Race LX dosent have the 4th pedal of course... as most race cars dont need a hand brake.

Mine has one at the moment.
In lieu of a rollcage :fool:

#8 LXChev366

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 02:54 PM

And to throw another spanner in the works check out what Greg Murphy can do :huh: bloody Kiwi's :D

http://www.tumejorgu...m&v=azpqTZ6WeJk

another of Skaify (with a good explanation from Niel about whats goin on)

http://www.tumejorgu...m&v=6Dv3whihq8I

Edited by LXChev366, 08 December 2007 - 03:00 PM.


#9 rorym

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 04:44 PM

A lot of guys use the left side of their right foot on the brake and the right side of the same foot on the accellrator to blip by tilting to the right..think I remeber Tander was one of those.....sort of similiar without trying to twist your ankle.Also with the Hollinger gearboxes you can flat shift on the way up...hence no clutch.
R

Edited by rorym, 08 December 2007 - 04:50 PM.


#10 waratah

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 07:30 PM

interesting :D

we used to use that trick to get our bushbashing hd's and hr's laying rubber :spoton:

in our torana we only downshift once from 4th to third each corner, we use the engine braking to get the car in a slide just as you enter the corner, thus this neat trick is not of help.

#11 RIM-010

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 08:24 PM

I use heel toe braking to tow the boat up the ramp :D My old HK racer didn't have any brakes, so I didn't have to use heel toeing :spoton:

Tim

#12 Yella-5000

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 08:59 PM

^ all the more reason why you would use heal-toe, you don't want uneven braking from the engine, which is what it is all about.

#13 RIM-010

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 09:09 PM

My HK: No brakes, 3 speed floor shift manual (only used 2nd), 173, valve bouncing around most of the track. If I've got no brakes, how can I heel toe?

Tim

#14 willo

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 03:17 AM

heel toe braking is hard to do properly on a dirt track cos ya get thrown about so much.....left foot braking while contolling the throttle with the right foot is the go....

#15 orangeLJ

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 12:20 PM

Ive said it before and i will put it again here because it is good for a giggle.

I failed my Ps test the first time for left foot braking and flat shifting in my little charade....... hmmmm......

The heel toe thing is good for doing wheelies in manuals aswell.


In terms of street use, the left foot braking is good when driving an auto and being lazy... like me....

#16 rorym

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 04:13 PM

Hold your head up...left foot on an auto gives more feel...plus if it good enough for Glenn Seton...??
R

#17 Bomber Watson

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 08:37 PM

When im playing around practicing the heel toe thing, i do it the way rory described.

Inside of foot on brake, Outside of foot hitting the throttle.

Why??? Cause i dont have a car thats big enough to let me rotate my size 13 boot thats why.

#18 rorym

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 10:57 PM

How???
Big Foot!! :huh:
R

#19 Tiny

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 10:15 AM

:clap: Great thread thanks LXChev366!

The videos are excellent, and the information youve given is really interesting and informative!

Thanks!

*Pinned*

#20 Tiny

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 10:16 AM

Personally i dont heel/toe much, but i did practice a little in the missus' excel.. and i tended to heel the accelerator and tow the brake.. also cause of my size 13+ feets!

#21 Yella-5000

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 04:07 PM

End of the day, you'll see very little benefit of doing it. If you take it to the track however you notice a huge difference in car attitude...... and practice makes perfect, so that now tends to be the way I drive anything (Oh, you can't heal toe a Bobcat).

#22 LXChev366

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 03:47 PM

In another thread I found some guys in Torana's having a go at the Mountain...all good stuff, but note they are not heel and toe braking so this is what it looks and sounds like...and what can happen (in the bottom vid)

note the engine revs die (back to idle) as he changes gear and when he lets the clutch out you hear the rear wheels chirp as the engine comes back to life.... due to the engine not reving quick enough for the speed he is doing, so the rears start to lock...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Q1JGHJahrFk

and here is another guy...similar driving style...

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


big deal you say...well this is what can happen when you get it wrong....if you listen carefully you hear the engine "go all quiet" and then the back comes around and ...well this is what can happen. Lucky guy!!

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

and now from inside the car...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=z_a6LZAhupk

Edited by LXChev366, 19 April 2009 - 03:49 PM.


#23 micklx

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 08:40 PM

At Phillip Island at Lukey Heights I usually change back to 3rd while the car is still travelling straight and not braking so the heel/toe is not as critial at this point.
Yesterday on one lap, trying to go faster, I held 4th longer than usual, the car was already turning hard left when I downshifted, I was a bit too casual about the heel/toe, when I let the clutch out the rears locked and I went around in a circle, across the grass and into the gravel trap.
All good fun......

#24 yellowa9xs

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:12 PM

A big part of braking and blipping the throttle at the same time is to make sure you don't lift off the brake peddle as you blip the throttle. You wont feel it, but people outside the car will notice the nose of the car rise. Mucks up your braking distances as well.

#25 WhiteA9XS

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 11:56 PM

and also the opposite watch out you dont add more brake pressure whilst blipping the throttle

it helps to ensure you have your pedals set at correct height




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