Thanks again mate! Autocad is something i'm trying to learn.. that drawing only took me the best part of 5 Hours! LOL! (1 hours work max for a skilled draftsman!)
1) Yep, got that sorted, to be honest i couldnt be bothered drawing the resistor LOL!
2) Again Yep, forgot to draw that, but i might add that when i get a bit of time Thanks!
3) That's what i had hoped, Again i'll check with the actual relay i get, I used the Tridon catalogue ( because it's downloadable) and i BELIVE it's shown at rest so 87A is its N/C contact.
4) Excellent point, I'll check it out, but the information that the sender came with ( autometer) shows it as N/O so it should close to complete the circuit at 220 degrees F.
I actually did think about that, but my Dash is now so congested with lights and switches and gear that it'll be a real pain in the butt to add anything so that it looks good and works! - I *Might be able to sort something out there..... Just had another brain wave!
Thanks!
Oil Pressure Senders
Started by
Tiny
, Dec 27 2008 11:04 AM
73 replies to this topic
#51
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Posted 01 January 2009 - 08:10 PM
#52
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Posted 01 January 2009 - 08:13 PM
Ahh ok the autometer sender may be like that but just something to check, the ones i was mainly talking about were the factory or genuine senders
Edited by SS Hatchback, 01 January 2009 - 08:14 PM.
#53
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Posted 01 January 2009 - 08:15 PM
Thanks!
#54
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Posted 01 January 2009 - 09:43 PM
As it is pictured you need the oil pressure switch to be closed(no oil pressure) to activate the relay to get it to change from 87A to 87, whereas activating your primer switch, will change the relay from 87A to 87. As mentioned by whypsi, youd need to reverse 87A and 87 to have you circuit work with a conventional oil pressure switch and also then have a primer button that breaks the earth when pushed if the terminals are reversed.I dont quite understand what you mean by "need the opposite of a conventional switch" in relation to the oil pressure switch. It's a NO switch meaning with oil pressire <15Psi there is no earth path. The prime button gives an alternative earth path to trigger the 5 pole relay (Main Relay we might call it) to prime the pump.
You are correct 87a is the terminal that is normally closed, but in your diagram you perhaps have confused the issue by showing it on the outside edge of the relay, where it is actually the centre terminal on 5 pin relays and 87 is the one opposite terminal 30
Anyway, came up with something else for your interest, sorry no autocad here. Only one five pole relay and a single diode is needed. have just used rectangles to represent switches and components. The function of diode is not to have the relay being activated by the temp switch(assume you dont want to kill the fuel when the temp gets too high)
Hope it is decipherable.
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tiny_wiring.bmp 750.05K
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Edited by torbirdie, 01 January 2009 - 09:56 PM.
#55
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Posted 01 January 2009 - 10:01 PM
oops, realised the ^ diagram would have the solenoid circuit powered when the car was switched off= eventual flat battery..no good.
redone:
redone:
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Edited by torbirdie, 01 January 2009 - 10:06 PM.
#56
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Posted 02 January 2009 - 08:30 AM
Thanks for your efforts Torbirdie!
I'm just trying to follow the circuit now, and it hasn't quite sunk in yet...
I've actually printed your circuit off 4 times, and running various circumstances through it to see what happens!
Results of status 1) - Car on Reds (Ign on), no oil pressure temp switch OK.
So far, If i'm right, I can see that the Priming switch wont let the earth come through to the relay because it is a N/O momentary switch. SO when the car is on IGN (Reds), the buzzer and light will be on, AND the fuel pump WILL be running ( Relay at resting state = 87A active). Maybe if i switched around the the pump from 87a to 87......
Result for state 1) - Need to remove Priming Switch and put priming switch on relay output 87 and tap into fuel pump line. thus when you press the momentary switch, power flows from 87 to the fuel pump.
Will keep updating this! Thanks again!
I'm just trying to follow the circuit now, and it hasn't quite sunk in yet...
I've actually printed your circuit off 4 times, and running various circumstances through it to see what happens!
Results of status 1) - Car on Reds (Ign on), no oil pressure temp switch OK.
So far, If i'm right, I can see that the Priming switch wont let the earth come through to the relay because it is a N/O momentary switch. SO when the car is on IGN (Reds), the buzzer and light will be on, AND the fuel pump WILL be running ( Relay at resting state = 87A active). Maybe if i switched around the the pump from 87a to 87......
Result for state 1) - Need to remove Priming Switch and put priming switch on relay output 87 and tap into fuel pump line. thus when you press the momentary switch, power flows from 87 to the fuel pump.
Will keep updating this! Thanks again!
#57
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Posted 02 January 2009 - 08:56 AM
Ok I've moved the priming switch from it's drawn location, and bridged it from 87 through the switch to 87A....
Results:
Ign Off) - Nothing at all No Warning Lights, No Relay activation = SAFE.
State 1) - Car on IGN (reds) - Warnings Active, Fuel pump OFF - Can be Primed by using Priming Switch (Connecting 87 - powered to 87A via momentary switch). = OK
State 2) - Car Running with good oil pressure - Warnings off Fuel pump powered by 87A (Relay in resting state)
State 3) - Car running - Bad Oil Pressure - Same state as State 1. - OK
State 4) - Car Running - Oil Pressure Good - HIGH water Temp (Temp Sender CLOSED = Earth supplied) - Warning Light ON - Buzzer OFF (Due to Diode) - Fuel pump stays ON ( relay still in relaxed state) = OK
Please see and Check Revised Drawing!
(Couldn't be bothered with Autocad... needed it done NOW! LOL!)
Results:
Ign Off) - Nothing at all No Warning Lights, No Relay activation = SAFE.
State 1) - Car on IGN (reds) - Warnings Active, Fuel pump OFF - Can be Primed by using Priming Switch (Connecting 87 - powered to 87A via momentary switch). = OK
State 2) - Car Running with good oil pressure - Warnings off Fuel pump powered by 87A (Relay in resting state)
State 3) - Car running - Bad Oil Pressure - Same state as State 1. - OK
State 4) - Car Running - Oil Pressure Good - HIGH water Temp (Temp Sender CLOSED = Earth supplied) - Warning Light ON - Buzzer OFF (Due to Diode) - Fuel pump stays ON ( relay still in relaxed state) = OK
Please see and Check Revised Drawing!
(Couldn't be bothered with Autocad... needed it done NOW! LOL!)
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Wiring_Diagram___2_1_09.pdf 15.45K
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#58
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Posted 02 January 2009 - 09:00 AM
The circuit(the one im suggesting) requires a priming switch of the momentary off/open type, sorry that would have helped your interpretation.Results of status 1) - Car on Reds (Ign on), no oil pressure temp switch OK.
So far, If i'm right, I can see that the Priming switch wont let the earth come through to the relay because it is a N/O momentary switch. SO when the car is on IGN (Reds), the buzzer and light will be on, AND the fuel pump WILL be running ( Relay at resting state = 87A active). Maybe if i switched around the the pump from 87a to 87......
Edited by torbirdie, 02 January 2009 - 09:03 AM.
#59
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Posted 02 January 2009 - 10:40 AM
Sorry Tiny, was composing my post at 9.56 when you posted and I sent mine at 10.00 and didnt see yours.
Just looked at your hand drawn circuit and is fine.
I see that youve put your primer switch to short out a contact between 30 and 87 on the relay, that would work, but you'll be increasing the length of the wire needed to go to your fuel pmp and have bulkier wires running to the switch etc with a consequent voltage drop etc.
This wouldnt matter if this is trigger for another relay that controls the pump(as you could use thin wire), but the idea of the circuit I was suggesting was to just have one relay for the whole lot.
It would still be best to put a momentary open primer to unearth the solenoid even if using a 2nd relay as there will be no chance of a fuse blowing short circuit if the wire going to it shorts out to ground for any reason.
Just looked at your hand drawn circuit and is fine.
I see that youve put your primer switch to short out a contact between 30 and 87 on the relay, that would work, but you'll be increasing the length of the wire needed to go to your fuel pmp and have bulkier wires running to the switch etc with a consequent voltage drop etc.
This wouldnt matter if this is trigger for another relay that controls the pump(as you could use thin wire), but the idea of the circuit I was suggesting was to just have one relay for the whole lot.
It would still be best to put a momentary open primer to unearth the solenoid even if using a 2nd relay as there will be no chance of a fuse blowing short circuit if the wire going to it shorts out to ground for any reason.
#60
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Posted 02 January 2009 - 11:01 AM
Just looked at your hand drawn circuit and is fine.
Actually just having another look, it appears you have your indicator light for the fuel pump in series with the trigger wire going to the relay, this would restrict the solenoid in the relay from operating.
Edited by torbirdie, 02 January 2009 - 11:02 AM.
#61
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Posted 02 January 2009 - 01:59 PM
Thanks Torbirdie,
I'll still use my rear mounted relay to pull in the pump, so i'm not worrying about the voltage drop along that length of wire. Reason is i've got the pump wired directly to the battery for it's feed!
Good point with the indicator light, I'll just double that off the 87A terminal rather than inline with the feed wire.
Thanks again, This certainly saved the relay used to trigger the temperature sensor/light!
Cheers!
I'll still use my rear mounted relay to pull in the pump, so i'm not worrying about the voltage drop along that length of wire. Reason is i've got the pump wired directly to the battery for it's feed!
Good point with the indicator light, I'll just double that off the 87A terminal rather than inline with the feed wire.
Thanks again, This certainly saved the relay used to trigger the temperature sensor/light!
Cheers!
#62
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Posted 02 January 2009 - 02:00 PM
Just as a side note, Can anyone tell me why some relays have a built in resistor in the solenoid circuit? What does this do and why would you use this over the normal relay?
Cheers!
Cheers!
#63
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Posted 03 January 2009 - 02:25 PM
Just as a side note, Can anyone tell me why some relays have a built in resistor in the solenoid circuit? What does this do and why would you use this over the normal relay?
Cheers!
Cant say Ive pulled many apart to notice, I assume you arent mistaking a diode for a resistor as many will have diode, reverse operation protection.
My only thought would be that the solenoids were also used in lower voltage circuits, ie for 6V and 5V relays etc and rather than build too different sets of coils, one for the lowest voltage was designed and just needs a ballast resistor for higher voltage applications.
#64
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Posted 03 January 2009 - 06:44 PM
I Noticed it on the Schematic/description on the Tridon website:
http://www.tridon.co.......=478&P=2001
If you scroll down to item TR006 or TR007 you will see a resistor in line with the solenoid! Definitely a resistor and not a didoe, Just something i noticed!
Cheers.
http://www.tridon.co.......=478&P=2001
If you scroll down to item TR006 or TR007 you will see a resistor in line with the solenoid! Definitely a resistor and not a didoe, Just something i noticed!
Cheers.
#65
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Posted 04 January 2009 - 07:16 AM
Looking at these circuits has given me a headache, So i;ve decided NOT to use oil pressure as a means of isolating the fuel pump.
I'm going to just use the oil pressure sender to trigger a light and buzzer and leave it up to the driver to kill the pump if needed. There are +ves and -ves for doing it this way, and also for using the oil pressure to isolate the pump, but in the interest of simplicity and my sanity, I'm going to go with just using ignition and the master switch to kill the pump!
Cheers for your help everyone, It's been VERY interesting!
I'm going to just use the oil pressure sender to trigger a light and buzzer and leave it up to the driver to kill the pump if needed. There are +ves and -ves for doing it this way, and also for using the oil pressure to isolate the pump, but in the interest of simplicity and my sanity, I'm going to go with just using ignition and the master switch to kill the pump!
Cheers for your help everyone, It's been VERY interesting!
#66
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Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:53 PM
I Noticed it on the Schematic/description on the Tridon website:
http://www.tridon.co.......=478&P=2001
If you scroll down to item TR006 or TR007 you will see a resistor in line with the solenoid! Definitely a resistor and not a didoe, Just something i noticed!
Cheers.
Ahh, a picture is worth a thousand words. The resistor is in parallel across the soleonoid. When the current to the relay is switched off, there can be a very large voltage produced in the coil, this may occur when say the temp switch opens again after the fans have been running etc. This large voltage could be detrimental to what ever supplies the coil, like an ecu in a modern car etc. Shouldnt be a problem for most of us, but there would be no problem using a resistor relay otherwise.
#67
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Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:56 PM
Looking at these circuits has given me a headache, So i;ve decided NOT to use oil pressure as a means of isolating the fuel pump.
I'm going to just use the oil pressure sender to trigger a light and buzzer and leave it up to the driver to kill the pump if needed. There are +ves and -ves for doing it this way, and also for using the oil pressure to isolate the pump, but in the interest of simplicity and my sanity, I'm going to go with just using ignition and the master switch to kill the pump!
Cheers for your help everyone, It's been VERY interesting!
I take it from a previous comment that you are familiar with tachiometric relays and how they work, why have you not gone with one of them?
#68
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Posted 04 January 2009 - 02:49 PM
Actually That is the next phase of my thinking, and i'm going to be trying to find one of those to see if it can be more easily integrated!
Cheers.
Cheers.
#69
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Posted 04 January 2009 - 02:54 PM
Most LPG installers have them readily available. Not that cheap however.
#70
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Posted 04 January 2009 - 02:58 PM
Ahh excellent, I'll try and track down an LPG guy tomorrow! (hope they're open already!).
Thanks
Thanks
#71
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Posted 14 January 2009 - 09:00 PM
Tiny you could always use some of these Murphy switch guages murphy switch guagesand mount guages under bonnet for when under there and drive relays of the switch in the guage which you can set to what ever you want. Look under the loose products tab.
Edited by PAL066, 14 January 2009 - 09:03 PM.
#72
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Posted 15 January 2009 - 04:51 PM
Very Interesting!
Thanks PAL066!
Thanks PAL066!
#73
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Posted 15 January 2009 - 05:34 PM
I like KISS.
Use a SPDT relay. (single pole double throw) should be 87 and 87a The 30 pin is the common and the inputs 87/87a are separate.
Can be adapted to other configuration.
Don't forget your circuit breakers.
Hope this helps.
Use a SPDT relay. (single pole double throw) should be 87 and 87a The 30 pin is the common and the inputs 87/87a are separate.
Can be adapted to other configuration.
Don't forget your circuit breakers.
Hope this helps.
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#74
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Posted 16 January 2009 - 07:28 PM
Have used both electrical and mechanical types of Murphy guages these were installed in under ground trucks and loaders (so can take a pounding) and used to return engine to idle and bring up warning light, I used these in last torana to bring up warning lights in case something went wrong when full throttle I had oil pressure set at 25 PSI which used to come on at idle when hot and temp was set at 105 degc was good set up for early warning and like i said before also good for when under bonnet.
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