Hi,
What roller lifters are used in holden 202 applications? Part numbers would be brilliant. Also, what block modifications are required?
A billet cam should be the easiest part, but feel free to recommend a cam grinder who you know does these & well.
A pic is worth a thousand words, so please post up what you have.
Cheers.
Roller Lifters into 202 Block
Started by
_Ned Loh_
, Apr 25 2011 03:53 PM
46 replies to this topic
#2
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 07:46 PM
I've been looking at different roller options myself. Zullo can supply both the cam and lifters, I don't know what brand he supplies but pics show vertical tie-bar lifters. The lifter spacing of the little six is basically the same as used in the 253/308 Holden and the Olds and Pontiac V8s. Not a hell of a lot of choices in an .841" lifter as anything "serious" is generally bigger diameter. A couple of things to watch out for: some (most?) of the lifters with vertical tiebars will foul the sidecover attachment bosses - the tiebar hits the bottom of the boss. You'd get away with it with a smallish base circle and not too much lift though, and perhaps with a little trimming of the boss. Or find another way to hold the covers on...
The other thing to watch is the location of the oil cutaway band (if it has one). There's some variation in the height of the groove from brand to brand. Where you need it exactly will depend on the base circle dia. and lobe lift. You don't have a huge amount of leeway if you have a lot of lobe lift so check it carefully. I'm inclined to go with a keyed lifter - the Crower 66274 looks good - because they have no tiebars to break off or foul on anything and they are lighter than most. The oil groove is positioned ok too for 0.4" lobe lift and a 0.9" - 0.95" base circle. You just have to broach a groove in the lifter bore for the guide buttons. Isky also does a keyed .841" but the key is too high to stay in the bore at full lift and would need bushes, the Schubecks and others are mostly the same. The big dollar gear like Jesel etc is all big diameter stuff meant to run in bronze bushes. Fitting these to the six wouldn't be impossible but you'd have to mill notches in the side of the bushes for the oil passage (and remember this is the feed to the mains and everything else so you can't restrict it).
The little 1-3/4" cam journals of the six are a pain in the arse because they limit the amount of lobe lift you can use while still maintaining a sensible base circle diameter. To get 0.650" or a bit more from a 0.950" base circle you need 1.75:1 rockers - it's much better to run more rocker than end up with a weak cam that's as thick as a pencil. An 0.850" base circle would allow over 0.7". I've run Clevo/BBC rockers in the past cos they are a tad longer and don't generally have retainer clearance issues. You have to offset the stud hole a tad but if they have to be drilled oversize anyway then it's no big deal. With today's beehives and small retainers though I guess you'd just chuck on some SBC rockers. Don't scrimp on springs or it will all turn to shit. You may need longer valves as well depending on lift. Valve-to-block and V2P will also be issues. I've got dimensioned sketches of a few different lifters I can send you if that would help; you'd need to know the lift and base circle of your cam to know which lifter would work best with it. I'm sure someone here will know of other combos that work. Only thing I can tell you for sure is that it will be expensive.
The other thing to watch is the location of the oil cutaway band (if it has one). There's some variation in the height of the groove from brand to brand. Where you need it exactly will depend on the base circle dia. and lobe lift. You don't have a huge amount of leeway if you have a lot of lobe lift so check it carefully. I'm inclined to go with a keyed lifter - the Crower 66274 looks good - because they have no tiebars to break off or foul on anything and they are lighter than most. The oil groove is positioned ok too for 0.4" lobe lift and a 0.9" - 0.95" base circle. You just have to broach a groove in the lifter bore for the guide buttons. Isky also does a keyed .841" but the key is too high to stay in the bore at full lift and would need bushes, the Schubecks and others are mostly the same. The big dollar gear like Jesel etc is all big diameter stuff meant to run in bronze bushes. Fitting these to the six wouldn't be impossible but you'd have to mill notches in the side of the bushes for the oil passage (and remember this is the feed to the mains and everything else so you can't restrict it).
The little 1-3/4" cam journals of the six are a pain in the arse because they limit the amount of lobe lift you can use while still maintaining a sensible base circle diameter. To get 0.650" or a bit more from a 0.950" base circle you need 1.75:1 rockers - it's much better to run more rocker than end up with a weak cam that's as thick as a pencil. An 0.850" base circle would allow over 0.7". I've run Clevo/BBC rockers in the past cos they are a tad longer and don't generally have retainer clearance issues. You have to offset the stud hole a tad but if they have to be drilled oversize anyway then it's no big deal. With today's beehives and small retainers though I guess you'd just chuck on some SBC rockers. Don't scrimp on springs or it will all turn to shit. You may need longer valves as well depending on lift. Valve-to-block and V2P will also be issues. I've got dimensioned sketches of a few different lifters I can send you if that would help; you'd need to know the lift and base circle of your cam to know which lifter would work best with it. I'm sure someone here will know of other combos that work. Only thing I can tell you for sure is that it will be expensive.
#3
greens nice
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Posted 26 April 2011 - 08:42 PM
for lifters with the tiebar you can use a die grinder with a cut off wheel and cut the boss back enough to get the lifters in and have clearance etc, use a stud (su manifold studs work great) because your only hanging on by 2-3 threads in the block. will get a pic for you. i heard 153ci 4 cyl chev lifters have the correct length tiebar too, but some lifters to suit chev +308 fit too.
good to see you back john!
good to see you back john!
#4
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 27 April 2011 - 10:00 AM
oldjohnno - THANKS for the detailed response. Will digest and reply.
greens nice - Thanks also. A pic would be brilliant.
Cheers.
greens nice - Thanks also. A pic would be brilliant.
Cheers.
#5
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 27 April 2011 - 12:03 PM
for lifters with the tiebar you can use a die grinder with a cut off wheel and cut the boss back enough to get the lifters in and have clearance etc, use a stud (su manifold studs work great) because your only hanging on by 2-3 threads in the block. will get a pic for you. i heard 153ci 4 cyl chev lifters have the correct length tiebar too, but some lifters to suit chev +308 fit too.
good to see you back john!
Thanks Kev. I doubt that Chev ones would fit, they are spaced a lot closer than the Holden. Pontiac/Olds should be OK. I'm keen on the Crower keyed lifters - they sidestep all the potential problems re spacing and tiebar fouling. Will post up some spacing dimensions and lifter dimensions later if it helps.
#6
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Posted 27 April 2011 - 12:37 PM
I have done it a few times without any major probs. I had to machine down the side cover bosses for clearance for the lifter tie bars and use a stud to hold the sidecovers back on as greens nice said. I am not sure what type of lifters they were but the roller rockers were 1.73 ratio. All the gear was supplied by Zullo (J-ZED) Joe was great with any querries I had.
#7
greens nice
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Posted 27 April 2011 - 11:48 PM
here are your photos Ned.
and yes johnno these lifters came out of a sbc, the slots in the tiebar are alot longer than normal though. no idea on what brand etc these lifters are sorry.
and yes johnno these lifters came out of a sbc, the slots in the tiebar are alot longer than normal though. no idea on what brand etc these lifters are sorry.
#8
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 28 April 2011 - 06:46 AM
Looks like Comp Cams stuff. You can buy the tie bars separately so SBC lifters with 829-L (Holden/Olds/Pontiac) tiebars would fit nicely. Do you know what lift cam was used in those photos Kev?
#9
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:10 PM
CHEERS for the pics mate. Work required on side cover boss doesn't look too bad. Are you lifter bores bushed or sleeved? They don't appear to be in the photos. What lobe lift are you running? And, do you know the base circle of your cam?
Anyway, I'm not too worried about the lobe lift and base circle this as my aim isn't for massive lift, but for reliability #1, and to get the valves open as quickly as possible #2. In my form of motorsport allot of time is spend idling and it's very hard to keep the lobes on the cam. The current springs in the head are 330 odd over the nose, which I would probably try to lighten if staying solid flat tappet. I currently have 1.6 ratio crane roller rockers mounted on screw in studs. My head can only manage about 0.550 lift (safely with some margin) before it is maxed out.
A few basic questions:
Is it necessary or advisable to bronze bush the lifter bores?
Oldjonno, the crower 66274 you mention that they are keyed so no hassles with tie bar clearance, but how does this work? Is the lifter bore/bush machined to suit? They show them here with a tie bar http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRO-66274-16/ but mention in description: "Notes: Groove lock roller lifter. Requires drill jig to install. Sold separately." Perhaps they have the wrong photo up.
Anyone ever run a 'rev kit' on a 202? Probably unlikely I'm guessing.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around oiling and alignment. Oldjonno any drawings you send/post would be good so I can try to work out where the lifter would sit in the block.
& yes, looks like it will cost some coin, but with the strong Aussie dollar might not be too bad if I can get the lifters direct from the states. All done under $2000 maybe less depending on the final set up.
Cheers.
Anyway, I'm not too worried about the lobe lift and base circle this as my aim isn't for massive lift, but for reliability #1, and to get the valves open as quickly as possible #2. In my form of motorsport allot of time is spend idling and it's very hard to keep the lobes on the cam. The current springs in the head are 330 odd over the nose, which I would probably try to lighten if staying solid flat tappet. I currently have 1.6 ratio crane roller rockers mounted on screw in studs. My head can only manage about 0.550 lift (safely with some margin) before it is maxed out.
A few basic questions:
Is it necessary or advisable to bronze bush the lifter bores?
Oldjonno, the crower 66274 you mention that they are keyed so no hassles with tie bar clearance, but how does this work? Is the lifter bore/bush machined to suit? They show them here with a tie bar http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRO-66274-16/ but mention in description: "Notes: Groove lock roller lifter. Requires drill jig to install. Sold separately." Perhaps they have the wrong photo up.
Anyone ever run a 'rev kit' on a 202? Probably unlikely I'm guessing.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around oiling and alignment. Oldjonno any drawings you send/post would be good so I can try to work out where the lifter would sit in the block.
& yes, looks like it will cost some coin, but with the strong Aussie dollar might not be too bad if I can get the lifters direct from the states. All done under $2000 maybe less depending on the final set up.
Cheers.
#10
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 28 April 2011 - 07:04 PM
Tie bar less lifters run a keyway in the lifter bores AFAIK.
Cheers.
Cheers.
#11
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 28 April 2011 - 08:59 PM
This is the Crower groove-lock lifter. The little buttons ride in a groove or keyway cut in the lifter bore or bush if used. Crower supply a jig and a drill bit to cut the groove though it'd probably have to be modified (or replaced with a home-made one) to suit the little Holden. The rest of the pics are self explanatory. If you're thinking of running only 0.55" lift then you shouldn't have any dramas with oil groove positioning. And at that lift you'd have to wonder whether it's worth going to rollers at all. A flat tappet can actually have higher acceleration rates off the seat while a rollers advantage is that it can achieve higher peak acceleration rates later in the cycle. So the advantages of a roller increase as the lift increases. At 0.55" you'd probably get very close to the same area under the curve with 1.75 rockers and flat tappets, and with the cool face type tappets the reliability should be ok too. And at a fraction of the cost.
#12
greens nice
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Posted 28 April 2011 - 10:42 PM
Looks like Comp Cams stuff. You can buy the tie bars separately so SBC lifters with 829-L (Holden/Olds/Pontiac) tiebars would fit nicely. Do you know what lift cam was used in those photos Kev?
arh ok good to know.
only 340thou at the lobe, its just a baby at 254@50
#13
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 29 April 2011 - 03:09 PM
This is the Crower groove-lock lifter. The little buttons ride in a groove or keyway cut in the lifter bore or bush if used. Crower supply a jig and a drill bit to cut the groove though it'd probably have to be modified (or replaced with a home-made one) to suit the little Holden. The rest of the pics are self explanatory. If you're thinking of running only 0.55" lift then you shouldn't have any dramas with oil groove positioning. And at that lift you'd have to wonder whether it's worth going to rollers at all. A flat tappet can actually have higher acceleration rates off the seat while a rollers advantage is that it can achieve higher peak acceleration rates later in the cycle. So the advantages of a roller increase as the lift increases. At 0.55" you'd probably get very close to the same area under the curve with 1.75 rockers and flat tappets, and with the cool face type tappets the reliability should be ok too. And at a fraction of the cost.
oldjonno, appreciate your thoughts.
So provided oil groove positioning is ok, then I could fit these without bushing lifter bores, just slotting? Will have a close look at oiling based on the diagrams you posted. Thanks.
It's not lost on me that what I am asking is not the usual reasons for going roller. As per my earlier post I have had trouble with keeping the cam lobes on, so this is more an excerise in relability than performance. Could I try staying solid and using cool face lifters?...for sure, and I have thought of this. Do you think cool face lifters provide a significant enough amount of oil to make a real difference? Is it delivered under any real pressure? The engine will idle for prolonged periods of time in between sustained full throttle periods.
I have previously used Castrol Edge 25w-50 mineral oil on recommendation. Perhaps I could use a better 'racing' oil with more zinc, or a zinc additive? Whilst I'm on that, does high zinc hurt rings bedding in?
What spring pressure (seat and over the nose) do you think a solid cam (say around tad under 250 @ 0.050 and 0.520+ odd lift through my 1.6 ratio rockers) with cool face lifters and high zinc be able to handle RELIABLY?
Cheers.
#14
TerrA LX
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Posted 29 April 2011 - 04:20 PM
So if they fit a 6 they would also fit a holden v8?
#15
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 29 April 2011 - 10:03 PM
The bores don't necessarily have to be bushed; you can groove the bore directly. If I was using rollers in an engine that idled a bit I'd make sure I used lifters with pressure fed oil to the bearings - even roller cams and lifters aren't immune to excessive wear due to idling. Though if the rpm range (and therefore spring pressure) was moderate I'd be surprised if there were problems.
I'd expect "cool face" solids to be markedly better with idling - the oil hole is pressurised. But even so a low idle speed might prevent lifter rotation whether they are oiled or not.
Zinc will certainly help the cam but it won't have any effect on the rings. It doesn't actually do anything at all until it is subjected to extremely high pressure - such as at the lobe/lifter interface. Everywhere else it's just along for the ride.
Really you should be asking these questions of the cam designers/grinders. They are the ones in the best position to advise what will and won't work, and what springs will work with your cam, valvetrain weight and rev range. I'm a big believer in getting all the cam and valvetrain components from the same manufacturer - if nothing else they'll be less likely to abandon you for using incompatible parts if the lobes go away.
You'd expect rollers for a 253-308 to fit the six given the similar centres but I don't have one handy to verify it. Crane and Comp (and possibly others) make them specifically for the 253/308s.
I'd expect "cool face" solids to be markedly better with idling - the oil hole is pressurised. But even so a low idle speed might prevent lifter rotation whether they are oiled or not.
Zinc will certainly help the cam but it won't have any effect on the rings. It doesn't actually do anything at all until it is subjected to extremely high pressure - such as at the lobe/lifter interface. Everywhere else it's just along for the ride.
Really you should be asking these questions of the cam designers/grinders. They are the ones in the best position to advise what will and won't work, and what springs will work with your cam, valvetrain weight and rev range. I'm a big believer in getting all the cam and valvetrain components from the same manufacturer - if nothing else they'll be less likely to abandon you for using incompatible parts if the lobes go away.
You'd expect rollers for a 253-308 to fit the six given the similar centres but I don't have one handy to verify it. Crane and Comp (and possibly others) make them specifically for the 253/308s.
#17
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Posted 30 April 2011 - 08:18 AM
As oldjohnno said above, talk to your cam grinder about your spring specs etc. I use similar cam specs that you mention without any issues of damage to the lobes.
#18
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 02 May 2011 - 05:28 PM
Really you should be asking these questions of the cam designers/grinders. They are the ones in the best position to advise what will and won't work, and what springs will work with your cam, valvetrain weight and rev range. I'm a big believer in getting all the cam and valvetrain components from the same manufacturer - if nothing else they'll be less likely to abandon you for using incompatible parts if the lobes go away.
Fair call, will get on the telephone to some cam grinders.
After telling myself I needed rollers, I'm not so certain anymore. Maybe the cool face lifters and good oil be ok(?). Will see what the cam companies say and decide.
THANKS EVERYONE FOR THE INPUT SO FAR.
Cheers.
#19
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Posted 15 August 2013 - 09:20 AM
*snip* Fitting these to the six wouldn't be impossible but you'd have to mill notches in the side of the bushes for the oil passage (and remember this is the feed to the mains and everything else so you can't restrict it). *snip*
Oldjohnno, what do you mean by the lifter bore bush restricting oil to the mains? I'm guessing you mean restricing flow by the bush protruding into the main gallery.
digging this one back up as I am now at the stage of playing around with a few different types of lifter before I finalise which way to go.
Ps. the cool face lifters I tried a few years ago when I started this thread didn't work. I have the noseless cam to prove it...
#20
warrenm
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Posted 16 August 2013 - 06:41 AM
Oldjohnno, what do you mean by the lifter bore bush restricting oil to the mains? I'm guessing you mean restricing flow by the bush protruding into the main gallery.
digging this one back up as I am now at the stage of playing around with a few different types of lifter before I finalise which way to go.
Ps. the cool face lifters I tried a few years ago when I started this thread didn't work. I have the noseless cam to prove it...
It may not have been the "cool face" lifter that was the cause, it might have been the oil or spring pressure
#21
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 16 August 2013 - 12:39 PM
It may not have been the "cool face" lifter that was the cause, it might have been the oil or spring pressure
The cool face lifter certainly didn't "cause" the problem, but were not the successful band aid I hoped they would be.
Ps. you forgot lifter bore alignment, lobe taper, lifter crown, excessive idling, the quality of the lifter, the quality of the cam core, or just a plain old nasty lobe profile. 
#22
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 16 August 2013 - 07:57 PM
But alas lots of people have been running stupid cam profiles without checking the lifter bore alignment, lobe taper, lifter crown, quality of lifter or quality of cam core without issues.........Few have excessive idling....Why do you have this issue?
#23
_tryhard_
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Posted 17 August 2013 - 12:02 AM
I've got a roller cam and matching lifters over here to suit a 202 if you want to come and have a look Bomber
#24
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:41 AM
But alas lots of people have been running stupid cam profiles without checking the lifter bore alignment, lobe taper, lifter crown, quality of lifter or quality of cam core without issues.........Few have excessive idling....Why do you have this issue?
Bomber makes a good point; if I'd had a series of cam failures after doing much the same things that work for everybody else, I'd be taking a very close look at the common denominator (ie. me) in the failures. I don't mean to sound like a smart-arse saying this either; I've certainly contributed to enough of my own failures.
This bit's going to be long winded, so I'll apologize up front. Nearly everything involved in racing engines has been oversimplified to the point where it can be covered in a magazine article or a pub discussion. But I think in reality nearly everything is much more complex. In the case of cams, I don't think it's as simple as saying "if you do X,Y and Z everything will be fine". If we look at cam survival rates, I think that the risk of failure rises pretty dramatically once you go past the typical street and strip profiles. In other words pretty much anyone can take a street and strip cam and provided they don't do anything too stupid it'll survive the break-in and last a reasonable time.
But as soon as you start using lobes with higher acceleration rates and spring rates, then the risk of failure rises steeply and I dont believe the usual "20 minutes at 2500" is enough to give a good chance of survival. And even if you do get through the break in phase you won't necessarily get a good life from the cam. Bear in mind that most of the 0.842" lobes that we'd be using would be developed on a gen 1 SBC, and that our Holden six cams are even skinnier than the little Chev camshafts. So a profile that's a bit "iffy" with a smallblock is even more so when it's used in a Holden with a necessarily smaller base circle. If you try to use a profile that's right on the bleeding edge with a smallblock it'll probably fail in a six, so don't get too greedy unless you're prepared to bore out the cam tunnel and use a custom core.
The next thing to consider is the break-in process. What we want here is to develop a thin, work-hardened layer on the lobes and lifter faces. With a street and strip or an old-style race cam 20 or 30 minutes seems to be enough but with more agressive profiles I think you need to go to a bit more trouble. The hard skin is going to have to be thicker to survive long-term, and it takes a lot longer to develop it. It might take a couple of spring changes, and the initial run should be on very weak springs. With all of the break-in runs the longer the running time the better. As for rpms you need to be spinning fast enough to ensure lifter rotation but not so fast that you're on the verge of floating the very light springs - you need weight over the nose to bed in the entire lobe, not just the flanks. Around 2000 to 3000 should be ok, and the longer this process lasts the better - with a street car I like to drive it for at least a couple of hours on the soft springs (being careful not to float the valves) and 3 or 4 hours would be even better. Run low ratio rockers if you can.
Depending on the cam profile and the springs required for maximum rpms you might need to run it again with intermediate springs before putting the final springs in. Run the revs higher this time to keep the pressure over the nose down (say 4000 or so) and again the longer you can run it the better the sliding surfaces will end up - if you can do this for a couple of hours then that would be good. After this you could fit the final springs and rockers and run it to maximum rpms. Bottom line is that the longer and more gradual the process is then the greater your chances of success are.
Everything else (oils, lifter alignment etc) has been done to death. There's no need for a special break-in oil but it wouldn't hurt either if it makes you feel better. Thousands of people have used EDM'd lifters successfully, and if the engine is going to have to run at low rpms I'd use them. But I'd definitely try to limit the low rpms as much as possible, that's what gives the high pressure over the nose.
#25
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Posted 17 August 2013 - 08:15 PM
And to balance with the above, you need to get enough load on the motor to bed in the rings. Sometimes I think it is better to bed in the rings with an old cam before putting in the 'big' cam and running in that.
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