I have a question,
was NK really the first replacement engine for the XU-1?
The CK was the 1971 XU-1 engine, and if we consider that the 1970 XU-1 would obviously require a replacement engine or short motor during the 1970 period and that Nasco did in fact produce replacement short motors or block and piston sets in 1970, then what was the prefix of such engines considering that the NK had not come about in Aug 1970?
if we follow the NASCO prefix order K in place of CK, L in place of JL, and P in place of JP then is it possible that the 1970 XU-1 might have a Nasco prefix J ie NJ****
Mike
replacement 186N, NK, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 and 7000 XU-1 engines
Started by
_Mike73_
, Sep 23 2011 11:55 AM
116 replies to this topic
#102
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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:51 PM
Nah, it would be 3100N prefix.
#103
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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:20 AM
dave has answered that easy question for you that has being answered a heap of times be for.
some of the subjects we debate on this forum are just full on life cosuming, its dead set like a ride at a fair get on get off and go again, if you really want to sort something out PROVE TO ME you guys with the 73 bathurst cars that there was more then 2 date coded blocks for that 151 motors, and i would like close up photos now he said she said bull crap.
cheers gong
some of the subjects we debate on this forum are just full on life cosuming, its dead set like a ride at a fair get on get off and go again, if you really want to sort something out PROVE TO ME you guys with the 73 bathurst cars that there was more then 2 date coded blocks for that 151 motors, and i would like close up photos now he said she said bull crap.
cheers gong
#104
yel327
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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:42 AM
Nah, it would be 3100N prefix.
Spot on. Although I doubt there would have been many past late 1971. If you wanted a short or engine they'd have sold you an NK engine for the 3100X replacement.
J should never have been used for an engine designator in that timeframe. It was first used in VL in the form VJ. GMH avoided a few. I and O for obvious reasons. And some because they obviously didn't want double letter prefixes like QQ, so they didn't use G, H, J, N, Q and W to avoid GG, HH, JJ, NN (in Nasco engines), QQ and WW. They did use CC for some reason but it is the only one. The only letters not used in the 70's era apart from these were X and Y. Much later J, N and W were used but V was avoided to avoid VV. Again X and Y were not used? N must have been allowed by that stage as replacement engines changed to N5 prefix and then to S much later. An NJ prefix is either dodgy (99% chance) or a mistake (0.5% chance) or something totally different that is yet unknown (0.5% chance).
#105
_Mike73_
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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:27 PM
Why is it that it is automatically assumed that something that you cannot understand is dodgy rather than agree that you do not have an answer?
I have asked myself about a NK being a replacement for a 3100X engine, but there is no way this could have been an option before the start of the CK production, what was the replacement short motor prefix for a 3100X in Sept 1970 to July 1971 ?
Could there have been some overlap between finish of the 186N replacements and start of the NJ- NK short motors?
Or could the 186N****S and NK be two different things ie the 186n****S a service engine or 186S model replacement, and the NK a 1971 short motor? consequently leave a gap in prefix for the 1970 replacement short motors.
I have no information of any NK being produced in 1970 and no record of a 186N****S being produced in 1971, what replacement prefix was used in 1970 for XU-1?
It is quite simple J comes before K in the alphabet so this means that NJ 186 must be one of three or four options;
1; a HR 186 replacement short motor
2; a HR X2 186 replacement short motor ( cam and bearings differed )
3; an early HK short motor ( virtually same as HR )
4; an early LC XU-1 3100X replacement short motor ( before the CK in July 1971 )
Yes there is a slight chance that it could have been a mistake, but unlike others I will be keeping an open mind on that one.
Mike
I have asked myself about a NK being a replacement for a 3100X engine, but there is no way this could have been an option before the start of the CK production, what was the replacement short motor prefix for a 3100X in Sept 1970 to July 1971 ?
Could there have been some overlap between finish of the 186N replacements and start of the NJ- NK short motors?
Or could the 186N****S and NK be two different things ie the 186n****S a service engine or 186S model replacement, and the NK a 1971 short motor? consequently leave a gap in prefix for the 1970 replacement short motors.
I have no information of any NK being produced in 1970 and no record of a 186N****S being produced in 1971, what replacement prefix was used in 1970 for XU-1?
It is quite simple J comes before K in the alphabet so this means that NJ 186 must be one of three or four options;
1; a HR 186 replacement short motor
2; a HR X2 186 replacement short motor ( cam and bearings differed )
3; an early HK short motor ( virtually same as HR )
4; an early LC XU-1 3100X replacement short motor ( before the CK in July 1971 )
Yes there is a slight chance that it could have been a mistake, but unlike others I will be keeping an open mind on that one.
Mike
#106
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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:42 PM
Mike, as has already been stated and is a known fact, 3100N was the replacement prefix for LC 3100X engines up to the release of the CK prefix.
#107
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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:45 PM
2 dated blocks would be very rare amoung any of the August 73 production JP engines to my knowlege, this identification as you will know was also used on NP replacement short motors only of a particular version and this double date ID was phased out by July/ August 74 replacement NP's as they had a different Identification in these blocks.dave has answered that easy question for you that has being answered a heap of times be for.
some of the subjects we debate on this forum are just full on life cosuming, its dead set like a ride at a fair get on get off and go again, if you really want to sort something out PROVE TO ME you guys with the 73 bathurst cars that there was more then 2 date coded blocks for that 151 motors, and i would like close up photos now he said she said bull crap.
cheers gong
Mike
#108
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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:54 PM
Mike, as has already been stated and is a known fact, 3100N was the replacement prefix for LC 3100X engines up to the release of the CK prefix.
Thank you, I haven't been looking at these prefixes for a while and missed that one,
This means that NJ likely predates that time period and could be a HR or HK replacement,,then the only question is would that be a performance version or a stock version 186?
Mike
#109
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Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:32 AM
Mike, there is no NJ. Don't try to invent something that doesn't exist. There can only ever be a Nasco number for a production engine. As there was no QJ or CJ there is no NJ. Either a mistake or a dodgy number.
186N......S is a Nasco replacement for a HK-HG 186P. These were sold into the early 70's. Not yet known if S is short or service or something like that. 308N engines also get the S so it doesn't stand for the S in 186S. It is also not yet known how the 186L and 186S engine replacements were catered for.
NK is the Nasco replacement for CK, 3100N is the same for 3100X.
186N......S is a Nasco replacement for a HK-HG 186P. These were sold into the early 70's. Not yet known if S is short or service or something like that. 308N engines also get the S so it doesn't stand for the S in 186S. It is also not yet known how the 186L and 186S engine replacements were catered for.
NK is the Nasco replacement for CK, 3100N is the same for 3100X.
#110
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Posted 11 February 2013 - 03:15 PM
Another point regarding this era was that many blocks left Holden un-stamped, simply because there was no legal requirement in the 60s. Some states required them to be numbered prior to sale & some states did not.
My father purchased 2 Nasco replacement engines back then (around 1965-68) & in both cases they were unstamped. We had to go to the old RTA pits & have a number issued & then stamped.
Dr Terry
My father purchased 2 Nasco replacement engines back then (around 1965-68) & in both cases they were unstamped. We had to go to the old RTA pits & have a number issued & then stamped.
Dr Terry
#111
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Posted 11 February 2013 - 04:43 PM
a numbers guy I am not.....but surely thereis some one still around from back in the day who knowns the guts of all this stuff
I know there is doco that states the bones of the system....but most things are in people's head's..particularly pre-computer.
i.e. some old Holden guy who was , say 35 years old in 1973? who worked in the section that dealt with this stuff,..who would now be 75 y.o. and can still remember?
Maybe/maybe not ??
I know there is doco that states the bones of the system....but most things are in people's head's..particularly pre-computer.
i.e. some old Holden guy who was , say 35 years old in 1973? who worked in the section that dealt with this stuff,..who would now be 75 y.o. and can still remember?
Maybe/maybe not ??
#112
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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:23 PM
I do know of a 83 year who had a FJ back in 1957,it through a rod,he bought a short motor from GMH,and he restamed it with the number of the old block that he had,it was different in those days i suppose.But his brother ran a holden dealer ship from 1967 to 1990,he sold lot of holdens including lots of xu-1's,maybe i should ask him if he can shed somelight with me,he is 81 now.
Regards John.
Regards John.
#113
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Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:26 AM
Don't worry, i'll find the relevant paperwork somewhere. Just slow looking for it! It'll all be explained somewhere. There is no secrecy or sorcery involved though, it all follows logical patterns, just a few things are not easy to nail down and need original documentation to answer it - like what system GMHP&A used to differentiate between, for an easy example: HX 202HC manual and auto short motors. The engines would both be NL prefixed but they had different camshafts for ADR27A reasons. Auto was a much more powerful engine, manual was significantly choked.
Edited by yel327, 12 February 2013 - 07:32 AM.
#114
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Posted 12 February 2013 - 08:08 AM
^^^ That's easy, Part Numbers.
All spare parts ordering is done by Part Number.
All spare parts ordering is done by Part Number.
#115
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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:10 PM
That only helps until the engine is a complete engine again! Otherwise there would be no need for ND, NE, NL, NM, NP etc, they'd all be the same and distinguised by p/n.
#116
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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:53 PM
That only helps until the engine is a complete engine again! Otherwise there would be no need for ND, NE, NL, NM, NP etc, they'd all be the same and distinguised by p/n.
The block and piston sets would not have had a prefix until there was a change in pistons like in July 73 otherwise all Holden and GM blocks and blocks and piston sets came without engine prefixes or numbers. ( not the case with short motors )
I have first hand experience of this, being a Mechanic, one time while replacing an Isuzu truck engine due to the steerer/ driving with no water in the engine.
I filled out an Gov department in house order form for a new engine block and pistons etc to assemble it ( I don't think it even had liners ).
The new engine block arrived and I assembled and fitted it to the truck and when finished I asked my forman "what do I do about the engine number" his reply was stamp the old one into the new block, and it was done, simple as that!
I have since found another NOS replacment Isuzu block on evil bay and asked the question " does your block have a engine number" the answer was a clear "NO"
I have also seen a 202 NOS being sold on evil bay and saw that it did not have an engine number either.
With this information, my personal experience and that I have seen unaltered blocks with Police numbers on them instead of Holden numbers, I have concluded that only short Motors, and complete engines had engine numbers and prefixes.
Mike
Edited by Mike73, 12 October 2013 - 12:58 PM.
#117
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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:14 PM
I wouldn't hang your hat on imported stuff being total proof for Holden made engines. Imported Chev engines (307-327-350) used in HK-HQ were treated very differently to Holden engines regarding when and where and if they were stamped with an engine number. These didn't get an engine number until they went to the assembly plants, export stuff (no ADR plate) didn't even get an engine number. Complete Chev engines sold through Nasco/GMP&A appear to be given engine numbers but evidence so far suggests short motors and blocks didn't, and as appears to be the case this is different to Holden engines with regard to short motors.
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