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replacement 186N, NK, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 and 7000 XU-1 engines

Started by _Mike73_ , Sep 23 2011 11:55 AM

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#26 frash da bucket

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:36 PM

Hi Jeff,

My letter R is in the same place as yours on your block.

Cheers John.

#27 frash da bucket

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:53 PM

Hi Jeff,

On my NP block i forgot to add,its got 2 cast numbers,

The one behind the oilfilter,and the other is behind my alternator,

The are the same cast numbers,but x2.



Cheers John.

#28 TheKing

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:54 PM

Thanks John, I don't know whether the 'R' stands for repeat/replacement/race or "really fast" but at least it's original stamping.

Cheers Jeff

#29 Bazza

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:58 PM

Hi All

I agree 100% with Dane. The pad height is not an indicator at all. I have dozens of photos and there is no consistency. I have photos of obvious fakes where the deck is not cut as low as on some genuine ones. I check for the direction and nature of the sriations (if not painted) and above all - the font used. The casting date is also of great assistance.

See example below.

Cheers

Bazza

Hi Jeff,

On my NP block i forgot to add,its got 2 cast numbers,

The one behind the oilfilter,and the other is behind my alternator,

The are the same cast numbers,but x2.



Cheers John.


Hi John

Your NP is not a 7000 series or is it?

BTW - Has anyone ever seen an NL with the "R" stamp?

Cheers

Bazza

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#30 _Mike73_

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:01 PM



Posted Image


now you can compare both
both to me have seen a machine shop



how bodgey is that,

you can see a ridge before the corner at back of block.

and part of the old number

the width of the machine surface near engine mounts is always a easy give away,when they have been done real good.

Funny you say that Craig,about the pad heights.I have wondered this for quite a while,(WHAT IS DEEMED TO LOW).Last Christmas I had a big shed clean up after finishing my resto and had the blocks that I have all spread out over the back yard,there was 2 186s and 3 202s nothing special about any of them.The 202s were all QL prefix and the 186s were 186P prefix.The pad heights were all over the place,some were high and some were low and they all looked factory stamping.
I have also taken notice at a few car shows at various Engine numbers and the same,there all over the place.
So What is deemed to low???
Sorry to change subject of thread.
cheers Dane

Hello all,
to put some perspective in this topic, I am a first class machinist by trade, and many years ago when I was starting off in my trade I was very fortunate to have a teacher by the name of Barry Moss who was fairly resourceful.
He got hold of some castings from another college and had us make them into drill vices, in this process I was given the job of doing the first machining operation on these.
The machining was by a shaper machine this is a single point tool that passes back and fourth removing material in a linier motion, some Holden engine pad surface finishes seem to resemble this same process, while others seem to be from a grinding process.
Machine shops are always looking for ways to speed up the operation so perhaps it was a change for this purpose, it is equally possible that both process were occurring at the same time to increase throughput.

Back to our mass produced project,
as I conducted my machining opperation some castings varied and had small faults so more material needed to be removed before they "cleaned up" so to maintain the overall size I just took less off the other side to compensate.
If you look at a range of Holden engines you will see that the flange that the sump bolts to is sometimes quite thin and at other times it is thicker, to me this indicates that engine castings simply had variations, this can be from a number of reasons, which could be another topic in itself, but probably left to the pattern maker amoungst us to elaberate on?

There is more I could mention but this outlines the reason that many engine pads will vary from factory, restamps are a seperate thing.
I have a replacement engine here from December 1969 that has a police number on, this pad surface finish looks fine and it looks original, but that has not stopped many giving me lots of grief about it making all sorts of claims.
A quick check of the Police number would soon prove them wrong.

Mike

#31 _sunburst73-xu1_

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:03 PM

Thanks Bazza,that is exactly what I have been looking for in my pictures on my computer for the last 5 minutes.And that was the exact result as pictured that I discovered just in my own back yard with the motors I have.
cheers Dane

#32 frash da bucket

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:05 PM

Hi Bazza,

It is 7...R

Cheers John.

#33 _CHOPPER_

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:10 PM

So the pad height differences is probably due to issues in the sand casting process?

#34 frash da bucket

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:13 PM

Hi Bazza,

I was at toranafest in 2006,

I saw a lj gtr with a NL block,

But no R stamped on the pad.

Cheers John.

#35 Bazza

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:22 PM

Hi Bazza,

It is 7...R

Cheers John.


HI John

Ok - so maybe the 7000 series was exclusively for engines replaced under warranty?? I have a number of photos of 7000 series all the the "R", but none of the other NPs have the "R"

Could be something to think about.

Cheers

Bazza

#36 frash da bucket

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:44 PM

Hi Bazza,

OK,my car was a recall by gmh in 1973,because they had a conrod bearing failure on the jp engines.

So mayby the R means Recall? or something but who knows.

It has a 73 block,and 72 crank and 73 rods,i found the parts as i rebulit back in 1992.

Cheers John.

#37 rodomo

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:47 PM

OK,my car was a recall by gmh in 1973


Recall would explain why so many? :dontknow:

#38 _Mike73_

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 10:05 PM

Hi Bazza,

OK,my car was a recall by gmh in 1973,because they had a conrod bearing failure on the jp engines.

So mayby the R means Recall? or something but who knows.

It has a 73 block,and 72 crank and 73 rods,i found the parts as i rebulit back in 1992.

Cheers John.

Hello John,
there were a few well known engine rebuilders such as Ian Tate and Harry Firth who built engines for race teams, do you think that it is possible that the R signifies that it is a race prepared engine from such a expert, and they simpy put the R to signify that it was race prepared?

One more point that no one seems to have picked up on yet, of the 73 and 74 NP7000R series race engines the early ones from Aug 72 did not have the three external ribs behind the oil pump and by March 74 still do not have them however by Aug 74 NP7000R these engine features have appeared.
Probably just a production mould change starting about mid 1974?

This information is from a very low base of data, so may vary a bit, so if anyone has more information on these race engines please let us know or PM me,

Mike.

#39 _oz772_

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 10:42 PM

.

Edited by oz772, 28 September 2011 - 10:45 PM.

#40 yel327

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 06:16 AM


Hi Bazza,

OK,my car was a recall by gmh in 1973,because they had a conrod bearing failure on the jp engines.

So mayby the R means Recall? or something but who knows.

It has a 73 block,and 72 crank and 73 rods,i found the parts as i rebulit back in 1992.

Cheers John.

Hello John,
there were a few well known engine rebuilders such as Ian Tate and Harry Firth who built engines for race teams, do you think that it is possible that the R signifies that it is a race prepared engine from such a expert, and they simpy put the R to signify that it was race prepared?


Mike.


If that were the case the R would most likely have been added after it left Nasco/GMP&A and hence why it is away from and not part of the engine number.

#41 _sunburst73-xu1_

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 06:37 AM

Weather its right or wrong I agree with John,makes more sence that the R would stand for Recall or Replacement.
But again who knows. :dontknow:

#42 _BATHURST-32D_

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 08:06 AM

hehehe

#43 frash da bucket

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 08:50 AM

Hi Bazza,

When was at torana the great at bathurst in 2004.

There was a strike me pink lj xu1,its engine no,

was NP 7393,which is very close to mine,it had no letter R.

Cheers John.

#44 Kockum

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 11:27 AM

Here you go Skapinad .

http://www.gmh-toran...p-engine-block/

#45 TheKing

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:58 AM

Has anyone ever seen another NP block with cutouts for the larger valves?

Cheers Jeff

#46 frash da bucket

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 09:14 AM

Hi Jeff,

I have seen one in a photo,but don't what cast date it was.

Also seen them on a lc xu-1 block,which is very rare.

Cheers John.

#47 _Mike73_

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 02:54 PM

So the pad height differences is probably due to issues in the sand casting process?


That is eaxactly correct, it is also useful to know that when Holden conducted production improvements ( this does not include the XU-1 production era ) that they did not simply throw out all their old moulds and make new ones, they actually had old moulds and newer updated ones on the go at the same time, this would have saved considerable money considering they were casting about 800 blocks a day, it also allowed them to increase production as was obviously progressively required.
When they were preparing special engines like the XU-1 engines if there were any advantage they could pick blocks with better characteristics, a bit like a Premiers that seem to have had better paint and quality control.
Obviously this selecting process did occur for XU-1 replacement blocks after production end in mid 1974 when NP blocks scored the three extra ribs behing the oil pump, an example of this is that only late NP 7000R had these ribs and the normal NP5000 produced at the same time did not ( at least I have not come across any that do )

There is evidence in this dual mould system in the gearbox castings before 1971, and from then on they were all the same to my knowlege.

If you look at the dates you can see that the updated ribbed casings and the old smooth case castings were produced at the same time ( no two of thes boxes are the same )

Posted Image

Mike

#48 torry nut

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 03:21 PM

Bazza,

Do you have a photo of a 3100N block ?
I have heard many stories of a 3100N but never seen one.

Anyone else for that matter, anyone have a photo of one they can post ?

#49 Bazza

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 04:33 PM

Bazza,

Do you have a photo of a 3100N block ?
I have heard many stories of a 3100N but never seen one.

Anyone else for that matter, anyone have a photo of one they can post ?


Hi mate

Nope - sorry.

Cheers

Bazza

#50 _Skapinad_

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 05:45 PM

so is there also an elusive 2600n ?
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