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Muncie Upgrade


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#1 warrenm

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:26 PM

I'm doing an upgrade to a Muncie gearbox that I have, to be fitted back into my LJ 2 door. I have run this box previously, but being an M20 with the following ratios,1st=2.52 2nd=1.88 3rd=1.46 4th=1. I removed the Muncie 7 fitted a Saginaw with similar ratios to the Aussie M20,whilst the Saginaw has served me well, it is in need of an overhaul. I found that I can purchase several different gearsets for the Muncie so I ordered an M22-Z gearset, an iron midplate(std is alloy) & an overhaul kit with competition synchro rings from AGE in the USA.The gear split is similar to the Saginaw & the gears are cut the same as the M22 "Rock Crusher" which seems to hold up behind a BB Chev, I also ordered 1st gear with a roller bearing instead of the std setup.
M22-Z ratio's 1st=2.984
2nd=2.043
3rd=1.474
4th=1
Attached File  P1020096 (600 x 450).jpg   86.36K   4 downloads
The new internal parts
Attached File  P1020097 (600 x 450).jpg   94.02K   2 downloads
Iron Midplate.


So I cleaned everything up, media blasted the box & proceeded to assemble the new parts into the box. I wont give you a blow by blow description of how to put a gearbox together, there's plenty of tutorials on line, so no need for me to bore you with that.

Attached File  P1020098 (600 x 450).jpg   60.04K   1 downloads
Cluster & input shaft fitted.

Attached File  P1020100 (600 x 450).jpg   68.73K   3 downloads
New gears fitted to the main shaft.

Attached File  P1020103 (450 x 600).jpg   73.86K   1 downloads
Midplate fitted to the mainshaft.

Attached File  P1020107 (450 x 600).jpg   69.77K   1 downloads
Most parts fitted to the box.

Attached File  P1020110 (600 x 450).jpg   70.56K   3 downloads
Box back together, ready to be fitted.

Attached File  P1020101 (600 x 450).jpg   74.8K   3 downloads
The left 1 is the new gear.
Attached File  P1020108 (600 x 450).jpg   74.08K   2 downloads
These 2 pics show the difference in the teeth angles. The cluster gear to the left is an original M20 Muncie.

#2 yel327

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:30 PM

They are a piece of cake to build aren't they? After playing with the scale model examples (Aussie M20, 21, 22) these things are easy. You can get your hands and fingers in places! You'll love the sound of the rock Crusher gears once you get it going!

#3 76lxhatch

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 04:40 PM

Nice!

Didn't know you could get an extra wide gear set, I've seen the M22W ones. It is a bit of a pain having a tall first sometimes but don't think I could give up the close ratios, its just so nice to drive. Every now and then I find myself wondering how much floor surgery would be required to fit one of those Gear Vendors overdrive units but I think it would be quite substantial in a Torana and they're not exactly cheap.

I love my Muncie, wish I'd swapped it in years ago! The one improvement would be a set of M22W (M21 ratio) gears, could listen to that noise for hours...

Why do they call them competition synchros?

#4 _Spark Eater_

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 11:17 PM

they're a stronger material, and something to do with a shallower angle of the... pointy bits, so they're less prone to break when slamming through gears.
but I only half remmeber that from something I skimmed through a while ago.

This is Awesome. I'm sort of rethinking shipping a whole wide ratio m22 from the US now..

#5 warrenm

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:19 AM

They are a piece of cake to build aren't they? After playing with the scale model examples (Aussie M20, 21, 22) these things are easy. You can get your hands and fingers in places! You'll love the sound of the rock Crusher gears once you get it going!

You're right they are easy to work with.

Nice!

Didn't know you could get an extra wide gear set, I've seen the M22W ones. It is a bit of a pain having a tall first sometimes but don't think I could give up the close ratios, its just so nice to drive. Every now and then I find myself wondering how much floor surgery would be required to fit one of those Gear Vendors overdrive units but I think it would be quite substantial in a Torana and they're not exactly cheap.

I love my Muncie, wish I'd swapped it in years ago! The one improvement would be a set of M22W (M21 ratio) gears, could listen to that noise for hours...

Why do they call them competition synchros?

I'm using 4.88 diff gears, so it's like a close ratio gear set now.
http://www.autogear.net/pdf/HighPerf_Home/AGE_M22_M23_orderform.pdf
Here's a link that shows the gearset or complete gearbox options. For a brand new gearbox I think that they are pretty reasonably priced, especially when you see the prices that some people have Muncie parts on for sale on Ebay.

#6 _Spark Eater_

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 04:39 PM

I'm about to order either the parts for an m22 or a complete gearbox. it will be wide ratio, behind a cammed 308 which won't be "on cam" until 3000rpm.

in regards to the input shaft and output shaft splines, which is the right (or best) ones to go for? it's going to a 9 inch, 3.89 gears (because it's used on the street and I have to remain close to or within the max speed limit with the engine still breathing properly when in 4th)
295/50/15 tyres, which come to about 26" in diameter.
the tailshaft isn't made yet anyway, and I'm using an exedy "super tuff" pressureplate which allows for a slightly larger diameter clutch face but I was told that a suitable clutch can be ordered with virtually any spline count. But, as there is never enough money while building these things I'd prefer to use more common parts than specialist ones, if that's possible, or sensible, or could save some money during the initial build.

any information or pointers would be really appreciated, cheers

#7 _Spark Eater_

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:35 PM

I can't edit my post so I have to make another one,

I was wondering if an m20 or m21 case, with the rock crusher internals and iron midplate, will be as strong as a "real" m22?

I am after a wide ratio m22, but importing the entire thing from the states is still a big expense. Also, aussie builders seem to charge twice what it costs for the outright purchase price than it costs to import one.

Cheers!

#8 76lxhatch

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:57 PM

10 or 26 spline input shafts - 10 spline is the normal Holden size, but 26 is also very common due to use in Chevs.

27 or 31 (I think that's right?) output shafts - 27 is the normal Holden size, but again 31 also very common (same as TH400).

Obviously with both bigger is better but to be honest I fail to see how these are the weak point at all. If you're buying a new clutch though why not go with the best, costs the same.

Buying a whole new box will get you various other improvements, 'super' case allows a better front bearing and isn't a 30+ year old porous casting, also new tail housing. Iron mid plate is stronger, a number of other little things like bearings, shift fork improvements. Most suppliers use the Italian gear sets which are generally thought to be of high quality. When I was looking it seemed like a waste of time buying all the parts when you could get a fully assembled brand spanking new box with everything for US$1800. The super case adds a little length to the box, 3/4" or something like that, hardly enough to make any difference.

An early M20 (2.56 first gear rather than 2.52) has some weaknesses in comparison to the later model that started the same time as the M22 was introduced. At that point in time the only difference between an M20, M21 and M22 is the gear set, so buy an M22 gear set for your M20 (with the larger input and output shafts) and it is exactly as strong as the M22.

Second hand boxes are quite expensive too but I lucked out, got close to just buying a new one!

No matter which way you go, standard shifters, clutches, bell housings, drive shaft yokes etc are all easily obtained and fit without hassle, there is nothing specialised at all.

#9 _Spark Eater_

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:30 AM

bellhousing, hydraulic clutch related crap for that, (and probably shifter and linkages etc) are sorted.

clutch can be whatever is best for whatever amount of splines are best, so I suppose I'll go for fine spline input and output shafts as it's completely down to whatever I want at this point. I suppose it now relies on whether I can find a good m20/m21 case for cheap enough as to whether I order the entire box, or just the wide ratio gearset.

ideally it sounds like a new box with a new super case is definitely the better option though, as the engine rarely stays the exact same config for very long with anyone's car.


Thanks for the comprehensive information!

#10 76lxhatch

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:22 AM

No worries, I was making exactly the same decisions not too long ago, glad my research is of help. This gives a bit more info on some of the improvements in the new parts:
http://www.tbtrans.c...cie_4_speed.htm
They don't seem to list a complete new box any more though...? Must be there somewhere

#11 warrenm

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:10 AM

I purchased all the parts direct from the manufacturer, http://www.autogear....ghPerHome1.html . They are good to deal with & answer any questions that you have very promptly, bearing in mind that they are 14 hours behind in time.

#12 _Spark Eater_

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:56 PM

cheers!

I contacted autogear, they were very helpful and pretty comprehensive with their specs list, suggestions and potential problems. the new Supercase muncie with the best of everything came to something like $2300 USD

I contacted a builder at www.fourgeartrans.com

this guy has been dragracing since the 50's, set 3 world records and some national US ones, and his customer service is absolutely OUTSTANDING.
the detail he goes into when listing the parts he uses (autogear, and the absolute best of everything else with synchros, roller bearings for the shifter linkages, all types of shit I can't remember off the top of my head) is incredibly detailed right down to the rockwell hardness of the individual parts, he offered suggestions based on his own personal experience and can tailor make anything to whatever you want. an absolutely, TOTALLY comprehensive specs list that he offered to break down if the technical specs were overwhelming (they weren't, I've studied mech engineering, but now my total overview of the gearbox is a much clearer image in my head)

the prices for a super case muncie were $1775 for an m22 with uprated everything and $1995 for the ultra, mega, "super everything" that he guarantees for 700hp and an absurd amount of torque, he offers a full year warranty and specifies that he knows how it will be driven.
he also offered a shitload of setup information, pre-installation prep information, lube suggestions, and other info, I'll consolidate this into another post somewhere else, but I can't speak highly enough of this guy's customer service. I have received TWO updates on the build status of the box (I placed the order at 3am last night), right down to the methods he is using to blast the case free of casting grit and what he's using to pre-wash the gears, he absolutely knows his shit from literally over half a century of personal racing experience.
I am totally pleased to be supporting a smaller company (regardless of whether it's here or in the US) when such genuinely customer based support and advice is offered, I can't specify the "extra mile" he (literally) went to because it appeared to be circumstantial, but I am REALLY happy in terms of ordering a complete box and have no hesitation in highly recommending this guy.

my $0.02

(actually it equated more to hundreds of dollars of savings, WITH a year warranty even if you severely abuse the absolute shit out of the gearbox behind a giant powerful engine in a dedicated strip car)

autogear seems to be the supplier for the majority (possibly all?) of the components, but this guy is fantastic. he also does t10's, super t10's, all other types of muncies, rebuild kits at competitive prices, NOS parts, help with identifying existing boxes, just look at the site and contact him.

after contacting many builders, as a first time buyer I could not be more pleased with this level of sincere and legitimate customer support, advice, and extra advice in all areas of the gearbox specs, installation, plus highlighting basically every potential snag and remedy, all from someone who has built and installed a shitload of all types of gearboxes and has a personal history of world record setting dragracing.

www.fourgeartrans.com

Thanks 76lxhatch and warrenm for all the information as well, I'll get the actual specs and more of the details etc as I don't remember much of it off the top of my head, and I'll consolidate this ramble into a more readable post somewhere else. (which part of the forum should it go?...)

Cheers.

#13 warrenm

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 07:54 AM

Sounds like a great deal. :spoton: What gear set did you end up ordering?

#14 unclefestal34s

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 08:29 AM

i've been dealing with this guy for a lot of years (fourgearstrans) bob and never had a problem with any of stuff..perhaps one of the more honest people over there to deal with..

#15 warrenm

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 11:52 AM

What oil did they recommend?

#16 _Spark Eater_

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:17 PM

I got a wide ratio gearset with:

2.52, 1.88, 1.46, 1
same as an m20, but obviously using rock crusher gears.
with the rear gears at 3.89 and 295/50/15 it ends up close enough ratio, and will be on cam pretty much on the speed limit, factor in drag and I should be within the max limit on most freeways etc. also on cam within the most common speed limits in other gears.

he recommended Pennzoil, Valvoline, Kendahl, 80W-90 GL4 (non synthetic) but I haven't looked at what's available here yet.
any recommendations on this part?

he also recommended the 10 spline input shaft as being stronger in his opinion, which I just went with, since that's holden anyway.

all up, he is great to deal with, the other companies were pretty good, but acted like huge companies, and were all a lot more expensive.
I'm for supporting small businesses too (this one just happens to be stateside)

#17 76lxhatch

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:09 AM

Sounds like a great deal, and the price is closer to what I was looking at previously (you can buy a brand new Richmond Super T10 for US$1700 so the Muncie needs to be similar to be competitive).

A lot of the Muncie info on the web says to stay away from synthetic oils, but there's bugger all else around of decent quality. They also talk about using GL-4 rather than GL-5 which doesn't make a lot of sense and simply isn't available anyway. I'm a fan of Redline gear oils and their 75W90 NS info specifically states for "Musclecar applications like Ford Top Loader, Borg-Warner T-10 and Super T-10, and Muncie transmissions" so that's what I'm using at present. Seems pretty good but I don't really have anything to compare to.

#18 warrenm

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:41 AM

This is some of the info that I received from AutoGear. This is to suit a box that will be "power shifted".
"We prefer multi-viscosity 90wt NON synthetic. 1 US quart is fine. If you can't find a NON synthetic 75w90 for example; you can use MAX GEAR by Royal Purple in a multi-90wt. The only synthetic I can recommend is MAX GEAR by RP; NOT their 'Synchromesh' brand."
"You can try. If its too slippery; the worst case is it will fail to shift under load when you try to 'speed shift' 2nd gear. At which time you'll need to drain (or use a suction gun) the oil and try again. What about chemicals sold by CRC? I know they market a 75w90 non synthetic GL4. There is also Pennzoil. Tell me the brands that are available close to you; I have a couple Australians."
" He uses 'Penrite Manual 80' which is 80w85 and listed GL4 API suitable for everything up to 90wt. If you can find this; it would do fine; if not, try the 75w90; but I dont know if it will work or not honestly."

#19 warrenm

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:01 AM

This is a bit more info.
"Are you familiar with Nulon (I hope I spelled that correctly)? Apparently they have a GL4. You can use a GL5 if it also says 'MT1'"
I've now driven the car since fitting the box, shifts nice, whines in 1st 2nd & 3rd as a "rock crusher" should, have given it much in anger yet, as I have to bed the new "brass" button clutch in. :driving: This will happen soon. :3gears:

#20 _rb3torana_

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:31 AM

Bit off topic but what was the best you ran with the saginaw reliably? Cheers

#21 warrenm

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 08:19 AM

[email protected] using the Sag. The sag is still in one piece, which is the way I wanted to keep it, that's why I changed to the Muncie.
This pic is with the Sag installed.
Attached File  SD20120211_T&T_SuperStreet_0774 (600 x 401) (600 x 401).jpg   57.04K   1 downloads

Edited by warrenm, 18 August 2012 - 08:25 AM.


#22 unclefestal34s

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:34 AM

[email protected] using the Sag. The sag is still in one piece, which is the way I wanted to keep it, that's why I changed to the Muncie.
This pic is with the Sag installed.
Attached File  SD20120211_T&T_SuperStreet_0774 (600 x 401) (600 x 401).jpg   57.04K   1 downloads


great shot and very tuff car...gives me a lot joy seeing a street car lift the wheels..

and had some of my best fun with my lj gtr with a holden six blue engine with triple webers,muncie box nearly 30 years running mid 13s ..

#23 debkar

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 02:45 PM

Just a question,

Was that a glacier white LJ GTR? Later sold less motor and box?

Regards Simon

#24 unclefestal34s

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 05:12 PM

Just a question,

Was that a glacier white LJ GTR? Later sold less motor and box?

Regards Simon


yes it was

#25 debkar

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 05:16 PM

I purchase glacier white LJ GTR back in the 80s less motor and Muncie from guy who had same set up, was running 13 s , when I lived at Campbelltown, $3500 from the Trading Post?

Non standard front seats, roll cage, fuel tap in boot, Globes

Edited by debkar, 18 August 2012 - 05:22 PM.





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