Hi,
Has anyone reliably used/using Edge Orifice type lifters on a 202?
Cheers.
16 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:28 PM
Yes I have used them in a 202 block,as you would know oil to the top end is restricted with these lifters. They will work with roller rockers only as ball type rockers need lots of oil.They were reliable but I only fitted them as a customer request.My choice is cool face lifters, reasonably close clearances and a std vol oil pump.I think restricting too much oil to the top end will allow the valve springs to overheat and lose their tension.Each builder has his own way but I prefer to allow some oil up top and get it back down to the pickup quickly. Doing this also gets the oil to carry heat away from vital components,I even grind reliefs into the conrods to direct the escaping oil to each piston and pin.Using finned alloy wherever you can will transfer heat away from the hardworking oil .A penny for your thoughts Ned.Hi,
Has anyone reliably used/using Edge Orifice type lifters on a 202?
Cheers.
#3
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:26 PM
Mick ,
I’ve had issues keeping the lobes on cams for years now. The cam(s) is designed for max AVERAGE Tq / max AVERAGE HP more than max HP so it is not wild by any stretch; it’s more the motors usage that must chew the cam up. Even with EDM’d lifters that I put in with a new nitrided cam last year, and every precaution taken to run it in properly.
I am grooving the lifter bores to give more oil to the cam in the immediate rebuild, but at the same time I’m moving ahead with going roller. Because I run on crumbs and I’m somewhat of a tightarse I’m looking for something I can run without bushing the lifter bore, and given the difficulties I’ve had, I’d like to use a pressure lube solid roller lifter. So far my short list of suitable lifters that are pressure lubed and reasonably priced and may be suitable are:
Crane
Comp Cams Endure-X Roller Lifters
Crower ‘HIPPO’
Now here’s the thing that prompted the question, all of the above pressure lubed solid roller lifters appear to be edge orifice, or at least the pictures seem to show edge orifice lifters.
The 202 doesn’t appear to suffer the same V8 oiling issues for which the edge orifice lifter may be a good band aid, and for all the reasons you have stated I’d rather allow ‘normal’ top end oiling, but I suspect that the 202 will be ok with edge orifice lifters. Your post seems to confirm this. As has been pointed out to me (thanks) I can’t think of a reason that would cause issues that wouldn’t cause the same issues in a V8 for which the edge orifice lifters were intended as the valve trains are for all intents and purposes very similar. There is one way to find out for certain…
It was suggested to me (thanks) to possibly mod the lifter to allow oil from the lifter oil band up to the hole, and run the engine with a cut open rocker cover to confirm top end oil flow, both of which might not be a bad ideas.
I’m currently begging, borrowing and stealing roller lifters to compare and dummy up. If I can’t get my hands on what I need Summit (& others I am sure) sell them individually for not much money. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-881-1
I’ll have to work out something for the tie-bars but I don’t see it being a big drama at the lift I’ll be running.
Ps. The right way to do it would be to true the lifter bore, but given the aforementioned tigharsedness, I’m going to try without. I have a quite a few blocks here right at the minute that I can pick through for good lifter bore alignment and bore wall thickness, although I haven’t quite figured out how I am going to measure the lifter bore alignment. I honestly don’t know if it is an issue with 202s or not.
I’ve had issues keeping the lobes on cams for years now. The cam(s) is designed for max AVERAGE Tq / max AVERAGE HP more than max HP so it is not wild by any stretch; it’s more the motors usage that must chew the cam up. Even with EDM’d lifters that I put in with a new nitrided cam last year, and every precaution taken to run it in properly.
I am grooving the lifter bores to give more oil to the cam in the immediate rebuild, but at the same time I’m moving ahead with going roller. Because I run on crumbs and I’m somewhat of a tightarse I’m looking for something I can run without bushing the lifter bore, and given the difficulties I’ve had, I’d like to use a pressure lube solid roller lifter. So far my short list of suitable lifters that are pressure lubed and reasonably priced and may be suitable are:
Crane
Comp Cams Endure-X Roller Lifters
Crower ‘HIPPO’
Now here’s the thing that prompted the question, all of the above pressure lubed solid roller lifters appear to be edge orifice, or at least the pictures seem to show edge orifice lifters.
The 202 doesn’t appear to suffer the same V8 oiling issues for which the edge orifice lifter may be a good band aid, and for all the reasons you have stated I’d rather allow ‘normal’ top end oiling, but I suspect that the 202 will be ok with edge orifice lifters. Your post seems to confirm this. As has been pointed out to me (thanks) I can’t think of a reason that would cause issues that wouldn’t cause the same issues in a V8 for which the edge orifice lifters were intended as the valve trains are for all intents and purposes very similar. There is one way to find out for certain…
It was suggested to me (thanks) to possibly mod the lifter to allow oil from the lifter oil band up to the hole, and run the engine with a cut open rocker cover to confirm top end oil flow, both of which might not be a bad ideas.
I’m currently begging, borrowing and stealing roller lifters to compare and dummy up. If I can’t get my hands on what I need Summit (& others I am sure) sell them individually for not much money. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-881-1
I’ll have to work out something for the tie-bars but I don’t see it being a big drama at the lift I’ll be running.
Ps. The right way to do it would be to true the lifter bore, but given the aforementioned tigharsedness, I’m going to try without. I have a quite a few blocks here right at the minute that I can pick through for good lifter bore alignment and bore wall thickness, although I haven’t quite figured out how I am going to measure the lifter bore alignment. I honestly don’t know if it is an issue with 202s or not.
Edited by Ned Loh, 13 December 2012 - 01:29 PM.
#4
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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:15 PM
Ned,The camtech cams I have been using with cool face solid lifters with oil holeat the bottom have been totally reliable with no lobe wear and no adjustment reqd for last 2 yrs .Seriously i dont think the edge orfice lifters will present any problems.The customer has a 218 ci 5.7 rod stroker with a ported 12 port head in limited induction speedway and the same camtech cam i am using and he makes 220 rwhp with 2bbl holley on alky.I think the comp cams holden v8 lifters use the same tie bar as ponti /olds (check to make sure)if so they should fit the 202.Truing lifter bores is a big job, roller cam lobes are flat and i think if your rollers cantact the cam close to the center of the lobe then it will work ok as is Mick.
#5
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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:33 PM
Have you double checked lifter bore alignment in the block seeing you are chewing so many cams up with moderate lift and spring pressure?
You can dummy set up using bearing blue.
You can dummy set up using bearing blue.
#6
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:43 PM
Hi mate,
Issues have been had in 3 different blocks (all trashed for one reason or another). Bearing blue as you describe will not give the full picture on alignment, but is better than nothing. Will be checking it out carefully over Christmas/new year.
Cheers.
Issues have been had in 3 different blocks (all trashed for one reason or another). Bearing blue as you describe will not give the full picture on alignment, but is better than nothing. Will be checking it out carefully over Christmas/new year.
Cheers.
#7
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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:52 PM
The previous camshaft from a different manufacturer wore two lobes in the same engine block over about 2 yrs. I have had no trouble since changing cams and using cool face lifters,customers have not reported problems either,mick
#8
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:35 PM
It's actually pretty easy to check lifter bore alignment. Or at least it's easy to check it in a for-and-aft direction and this is the important one as far as lobe and lifter life is concerned. The tools to do it are cheap and easy to make.
Grab a piece of 1-1/2" brightshaft the same length as the camshaft. Sleeve each end so it fits snugly into the front and rear cam bearings. Check that it's straight and put a handle on the front if you want to get fancy.
Now grab an old lifter, it doesn't matter if it has any guts in it or not. Grind the top lip on a linisher so that it's on a slight angle, you want one side a mm or two lower than the other. Make sure the angled surface is flat and smooth and dress off any burrs. On the other end (the face) put a mark in line with the high point or peak of the lip you just linished. A ground notch won't wear off like a paint marker will.
OK, slip the dummy shaft into the block, and drop the modified lifter onto it upside down. Turn it so the mark is towards the front and set a dial indicator on the centre of the lifter face. Zero the gauge and turn the lifter slightly just to make sure it's at it's highest point and re-zero if necessary. Spin the lifter 180 degrees and again find the highest point. If the lifter bore is square the gauge will again be on zero, but if there is more than a couple of thou difference you'd want to investigate or find a better block. Once you get set up you can check all 12 bores in no time. And the nice thing is it'll tell you whether the lifter bores are square to the cam, regardless of whether the cam tunnel is square in the block or not.
Grab a piece of 1-1/2" brightshaft the same length as the camshaft. Sleeve each end so it fits snugly into the front and rear cam bearings. Check that it's straight and put a handle on the front if you want to get fancy.
Now grab an old lifter, it doesn't matter if it has any guts in it or not. Grind the top lip on a linisher so that it's on a slight angle, you want one side a mm or two lower than the other. Make sure the angled surface is flat and smooth and dress off any burrs. On the other end (the face) put a mark in line with the high point or peak of the lip you just linished. A ground notch won't wear off like a paint marker will.
OK, slip the dummy shaft into the block, and drop the modified lifter onto it upside down. Turn it so the mark is towards the front and set a dial indicator on the centre of the lifter face. Zero the gauge and turn the lifter slightly just to make sure it's at it's highest point and re-zero if necessary. Spin the lifter 180 degrees and again find the highest point. If the lifter bore is square the gauge will again be on zero, but if there is more than a couple of thou difference you'd want to investigate or find a better block. Once you get set up you can check all 12 bores in no time. And the nice thing is it'll tell you whether the lifter bores are square to the cam, regardless of whether the cam tunnel is square in the block or not.
Edited by oldjohnno, 14 December 2012 - 08:36 PM.
#9
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:26 AM
Hi mate,
Bearing blue as you describe will not give the full picture on alignment, but is better than nothing. Will be checking it out carefully over Christmas/new year.
Cheers.
Just drop a lifter onto a blued tip of a lobe at full lift and wind it back and forth a few thou with give you both fore and aft aswell as east and west.
Repeat each lobe as needed.
#10
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:14 AM
Just drop a lifter onto a blued tip of a lobe at full lift and wind it back and forth a few thou with give you both fore and aft aswell as east and west.
Repeat each lobe as needed.
The trouble with that is that the lobe is tapered and the lifter is radiused, and you won't really know if the pattern is indicating lifter alignment, lobe taper, or the axial position of the camshaft. Or some combination thereof. It won't really give you any useful information.
#11
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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:48 PM
The trouble with that is that the lobe is tapered and the lifter is radiused, and you won't really know if the pattern is indicating lifter alignment, lobe taper, or the axial position of the camshaft. Or some combination thereof. It won't really give you any useful information.
On the nose... would like to hear how you do it then.
#12
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:37 AM
It's actually pretty easy to check lifter bore alignment. Or at least it's easy to check it in a for-and-aft direction and this is the important one as far as lobe and lifter life is concerned. The tools to do it are cheap and easy to make.
Grab a piece of 1-1/2" brightshaft the same length as the camshaft. Sleeve each end so it fits snugly into the front and rear cam bearings. Check that it's straight and put a handle on the front if you want to get fancy.
Now grab an old lifter, it doesn't matter if it has any guts in it or not. Grind the top lip on a linisher so that it's on a slight angle, you want one side a mm or two lower than the other. Make sure the angled surface is flat and smooth and dress off any burrs. On the other end (the face) put a mark in line with the high point or peak of the lip you just linished. A ground notch won't wear off like a paint marker will.
OK, slip the dummy shaft into the block, and drop the modified lifter onto it upside down. Turn it so the mark is towards the front and set a dial indicator on the centre of the lifter face. Zero the gauge and turn the lifter slightly just to make sure it's at it's highest point and re-zero if necessary. Spin the lifter 180 degrees and again find the highest point. If the lifter bore is square the gauge will again be on zero, but if there is more than a couple of thou difference you'd want to investigate or find a better block. Once you get set up you can check all 12 bores in no time. And the nice thing is it'll tell you whether the lifter bores are square to the cam, regardless of whether the cam tunnel is square in the block or not.
Cheers Oldjohnno. I think my crystal ball sees something like this in my future...
#13
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:48 AM
...for-and-aft direction and this is the important one as far as lobe and lifter life is concerned...
Just to confirm - Are we looking for the centerline of the lifterbore in relation to the lobe?
#14
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:41 AM
Just to confirm - Are we looking for the centerline of the lifterbore in relation to the lobe?
Not really, though you'd want reasonable alignment there too (remembering that some offset for lifter rotation isn't uncommon).
What we're more concerned with is making sure the centreline of the lifter bore is perpendicular to the centreline of the camshaft as looking from the side. A little bit of an angle in an east-west direction doesn't really matter; all it's going to do is advance or retard the timing by a tiny amount. But if the centreline of the lifter bore is inclined in a north-south direction you can get abnormally high pressure concentrations on points of the lifter face and lobe. The radius on the face of the lifter allows a small amount of inclination without problems in a stocker but you'd want it to be pretty much spot on with an aggressive lobe and heavy springs.
It's also important with roller lobes because the rollers don't have the radius of the "flat" tappets and the lobes aren't ground on a taper like the FT lobes. It mightn't fail completely like a FT cam but you'll see signs of high loadings on one side of the roller and lobe.
#15
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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:20 AM
Hi All,
Sorry for interrupting oldjohnno,
After reading all the good work here, could you blue the roller on the roller lifter for roller contact to the cam lobe to see the blued position on the cam lobe. Dave I
Sorry for interrupting oldjohnno,
After reading all the good work here, could you blue the roller on the roller lifter for roller contact to the cam lobe to see the blued position on the cam lobe. Dave I
#16
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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:36 AM
Hi All,
Sorry for interrupting oldjohnno,
After reading all the good work here, could you blue the roller on the roller lifter for roller contact to the cam lobe to see the blued position on the cam lobe. Dave I
Yep, that'd be fine for a roller but it won't work with a flat tappet cam.
#17
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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:18 PM
Not really, though you'd want reasonable alignment there too (remembering that some offset for lifter rotation isn't uncommon).
What we're more concerned with is making sure the centreline of the lifter bore is perpendicular to the centreline of the camshaft as looking from the side. A little bit of an angle in an east-west direction doesn't really matter; all it's going to do is advance or retard the timing by a tiny amount. But if the centreline of the lifter bore is inclined in a north-south direction you can get abnormally high pressure concentrations on points of the lifter face and lobe. The radius on the face of the lifter allows a small amount of inclination without problems in a stocker but you'd want it to be pretty much spot on with an aggressive lobe and heavy springs.
It's also important with roller lobes because the rollers don't have the radius of the "flat" tappets and the lobes aren't ground on a taper like the FT lobes. It mightn't fail completely like a FT cam but you'll see signs of high loadings on one side of the roller and lobe.
Gotcha. Makes perfect sense.
Cheers.
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