44 replies to this topic

[yel327]

Over 600 GT sedans including a similar number of RPO83 by the end of Sept ‘73, however they must be on a different form of recognition to the GT coupe as the original form for the GT sedan has JG33 where the LJ XU1 just has LJ. Ford hadn’t built 200 JG66 until the end of August 1972 so my guess is they must have submitted paperwork for the GT coupe late in 1972. In fact they had to have done it that way otherwise John Goss wouldn’t have been able to race his XA GT coupe early in 1973. He was campaigning it very early on and there were only about 160 odd GT coupe built in 1973 by the end of March 1973 and far less sedans. So either the coupe is racing under automatic acceptance as it was homologated in 1972 or the paperwork was put in early into 1973 but counting most of the required 500 cars from cars built in 1972. I suspect the former. I’ll see if I can get a look at the coupe recognition docs.

[Dr Terry]

The Ford homologation process was always very sus. Do you remember when Fred Gibson pranged his XA coupe in late '73 & they noticed it had rear disc brakes.

 

When questioned, Ford said that the Landau had rear discs & that they were really the "same car as a GT Hardtop". !!

 

Dr Terry

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

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[yel327]

^^That is public domain knowledge, find it anywhere on the ‘web. It is what I was reading my totals off.

It looks like Terry that Ford probably followed the same homologation path as GMH did for the LJ XU1, the original 200 cars (Torana recognition slightly earlier than the XA GT sedan) and then the cars were automatically accepted into GroupC in 1973. I haven’t seen the XA GT coupe homologation yet as to whether it is a separate 200 recognition (or 500 if done in 1973), they’d built 200 by the end of August 1972 or 500 by the end of 1972 so I guess it could be either. Or if possibly the coupe was done as as evolution of type on the original 200 XA GT sedans which I doubt but as you say Ford were a bit loose at times so it could be. Will wait and see.

[crabba67]

Back to the original topic Gary how many do you know from list of JP 216 from acacia ridge all recorded on the 6th and the 7th of September the (one built on the 8th with a np) with out giving the details of which ones but have a H252 9H head from factory ...... I know of a 11 with only 3 with their original block and heads all with a E172 7H

From H247797 to H247975

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

It is also common knowledge that Ford produced 259 1973 XA RPO-83 Homologation Specials in the months of August & September 1973 prior to ceasing production. 129 Sedans & 130 Coupes. Holden produced 289 1973 LJ GTR XU-1 Homologation Specials in the months of July, August & September 1973 prior to ceasing production. Prior to the homologation run, Holden produced 500 1973 LJ GTR XU-1,s.

 

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[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

In 1974 Holden produced a total of 263 LH L34's

[yel327]

It is not common knowledge that Ford built 259 RPO83. It is 120 coupes and 130 sedans. All built in August 1973. There were also normal GT's built alongside and in September 1973. That 259 has been shown by Ford historians to be incorrect. The Ford records do exist.

 

I think you are missing the whole point, and I'm sorry but what you are suggesting is not logical to me. Put it this way:

 

Ford XY GT-HO and VH E49 continued to race in 1973 in GroupC trim. There were only ever about 300 XY GT-HO and 149 VH E49. None were built in 1973. Neither were built in a quantity of 500 at any time.

 

I was looking at the XA as it looks to be the only other heavy hitter competing in the 1973 GroupC racing that was a current production model, like the LJ.

 

It is a fact that Ford produced an FIA/CAMS recognition document that states that starting in January 1972 that Ford had completed 200 XA JG33 models by March 1972, recognition valid from June 1972. This will be getting ready for the XA GT-HO.

 

It is also a fact that the XA GT coupe was racing in GroupC early in 1973. In order to do so it can only really have been done in three ways. Either it was homologated later in 1972 (after August) when a build of 200 was reached, in which case there will be a separate recognition document. Or it was homologated under GroupC early in 1973 using a total of 500 built up to December 1972. Or it was done as a variation on the JG33, in which case a build quantity of 100 would apply I believe and that had been achieved as early as mid August 1972. In any of these three cases the car was eligible for GroupC in 1973 right from the start. The RPO83 variant was a quantity of 120, all built in August 1973 out of a total build of 364 XA GT coupe in 1973. There was never 500 XA GT coupes built in 1973, only 244 regular XA GT coupe plus 120 RPO83 GT coupe.

 

Why would GMH have to build another 500 LJ XU1 in 1973? It is not logical.

 

I've hopefully will have access to the XA homologation papers in a few weeks, then it may all make some sense. The XA will make it easier to understand the GMH process as the exact build figures are well documented. Yes it is possible that Ford did something weird with the homologation process but we'll see.

 

I'm not sure what L34 has to do with 1973 though, the rules for eligibility changed for 1974 afaik, but never really looked into it. I'm sure I've seen somewhere that only parts had to be produced not actual cars. And in any case L34 was not homologated under Series Production and accepted into GroupC.

 

I'm also pretty sure that the wording about "the year of manufacture being immaterial" that you stated before was in the 1972 rules is also in 1973 and 1974 and probably later as well. I'd have copies of them somewhere, will have a look and see where I stashed them.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

 H252 9H 1.png   352.01K   6 downloads  H252 9H.jpg   100.9K   5 downloads

 

Apologies for the thread steal........

[crabba67]

That’s a rare than a set of Genuine carby tags haven’t seen one in 25 years..... most or all from jp219 to jp227 are missing when it comes to a 9H

[S pack]

You just posted the same thing? Where does it state they all have to be built in 1973? It doesn't. To me it reads logically that for GroupC (only valid until December 1973) that for locally produced cars in order to be recognised, that 500 basically identical units must be produced. If the LJ XU1 was only produced in 1973 and not homologated for GroupE then GMH would have to have built 500 basically identical units (unless I guess it was an evolution of type). That is exactly how that those words read. However the LJ XU1 was never homologated under 1973 rules, it was automatically accepted into GroupC as it was homologated under GroupE, just like the VH E49 and the XY GT-GHO and the LC GTR and possibly others. All of those 3 raced in 1973 as GroupC cars with GroupC freedoms. The LJ XU1 was no different. I cannot understand how that can be interpreted any differently?

I'm pretty sure the 1973 ATC regulations also say something along the lines of if a car shows complete compliance with its recognition form, the year of manufacture shall be immaterial.

Byron,

From 1968 Group E Series production cars were eligible to compete in Group C.

 

1969 Group C eligibility

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1970 & 1971 Group C Eligibility

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1972 Group C Eligibility

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Also the 1973 ATC regs definitely contain the clause about the year of manufacture being immaterial.

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

and 1973 is..........

[xu1_lc]

H252 9H 1.pngH252 9H.jpg

Apologies for the thread steal........

That's nearly as rare as this one

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Edited by xu1_lc, 05 February 2021 - 08:50 PM.

[crabba67]

A ....H1 or H2?

Edited by crabba67, 05 February 2021 - 09:54 PM.

[MFM]

Can someone explain to me why are the M 21 heads are rare? I have done some research on old posts but it wasn't very clear to me. 

[MFM]

So I'll stumble my way through this. A291/A281 were cast in January 71  and the next is M 21 (Dec 71) that's a massive gap between January (late) and December 1971 they must have cast hundreds of the A281/A291 to carry this through to M 21 then the next cast date is E172 (May72) so that's a period of say 5 months where every XU1 was supposed to be fitted with M 21 cast heads so back to my question why are the M 21 heads seen as rare, if anything they should be lots out there?

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

That's nearly as rare as this one

 

Not quite, the M21 (2H) & H252 (9H) were built in similar numbers. Both heads had few spares, if any. The H252 (9H) had its head recalled due to some valve issues with many being replaced, making it rarer. In terms of rareness, I don't think you can go past the C233 (7H) with less than 40 cars being produced or perhaps the 20F3 (8H) with less than 80 cars being produced with both heads having few spares, if any. They did produce spares for the C233, (9H & 10H) and also spares for the 20F3 (10H).

Basically the M21 (1H & 2H), the H252 (9H), the C233 (7H) & 20F3 (8H) were used in production. Today there are some XU-1 heads floating around, however most were spare parts.......

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Byron,

From 1968 Group E Series production cars were eligible to compete in Group C.

 

1969 Group C eligibility

1969 Group C Eligibility.jpg

1970 & 1971 Group C Eligibility

1970 1971 Group C Eligibility.jpg

1972 Group C Eligibility

1972 Group C Eligibility.jpg

 

Also the 1973 ATC regs definitely contain the clause about the year of manufacture being immaterial.

 

1973 is ?

[FLY_AGAIN_XU-1]

Does anyone own or know of any LC XU-1 heads, and what number is at the back, near the H ?

 

E140

E210

 

G30

G90

 

A281

A291

[73SUNBURSTEXYOUWON]

Does anyone own or know of any LC XU-1 heads, and what number is at the back, near the H ?
 
E140
E210
 
G30
G90
 
A281
A291

G90 = 3H

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•  20210207_133227.jpg   240.85K   5 downloads
•  20210207_133252.jpg   266.22K   4 downloads