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FIXING THE HOLDEN V8 OIL PRESSURE ISSUES. NEW DESIGN OIL PUMP


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#1 _LH SLR 3300_

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:22 AM

A lot of people who has owned & or built high performance Holden V8s for the street, strip or track will have experienced inadequate oil pressure issues under load & or high revs & over the years there have been several theories behind this problem & countless hours have been spent on trying to solve it with high volumn/pressure oil pumps, extensive engine block preparation, custom built oiling systems, dry sumps, however the problem still exists. I'm far from an expert on this subject, but having owned several 308-355 V8s, I have experienced engine failures usually attributed to lack of oil pressure causing spun bearings, scored crankshafts etc & I've experienced some stressfull moments watching the oil pressure drop on some of my engines on the street & out at the track, sometimes dropping to zero after a hard run. Ned Sassine from Hercules Competition Engines is a master engine builder with plenty of experience in building Holden V8 engines & after a lot of research & development, he has come up with his own solution to the inherent oil pressure problem these engines suffer in the form of a completely re-engineered & designed oil pump system.

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Without going into technical detail, Ned backs his theories up with results & I was able to witness first hand the results. The test engine was a fairly stout VN headed 355 making around 530bhp. With the revised oil pump fitted, Ned run the engine on his dyno. On start up the engine read 50psi at idle, normal for 308, but increased to as high as 80psi at 7000rpm. The crucial part is after reaching operating temp, the pressure never dropped below 35-40psi at idle & even with the revs held at 3000rpm for several minutes, the pressure never dropped, instead consistently held around 50-60psi. Rather than boring everyone by trying to explain in intricate detail, i'll let the dyno run tell the story.

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In the last video the engine can clearly be seen reaching 80psi at 7000rpm, I myself have never seen a Holden V8 run over 60psi max stone cold on high revs. Even after several runs with the oil well & truly hot, the pressure never dropped below 30-35psi. The engine was also running 40W oil as opposed to 50W usually run in older design engines. The other point is how the pressure remained consistant, usually it will fluctuate badly with the standard pump, actually dropping as the revs increase & are held such as on a quarter mile run or hill climb. This was the first test run of Ned's prototype, the production items will be almost cosmetically the same as a standard Holden oil pump so they won't look too out of place on authentic muscle car restos, a standard oil line/gauge fitting will fit straight on & the pump only sits marginaly lower than a standard pump. For more info call Ned on (02) 9718-0189



#2 TerrA LX

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:24 AM

What a champion.

#3 unclefestal34s

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 10:00 AM

this new set up works brilliantly and will cure the long term oiling problem i our holden v8s suffered,..no need for big and custom sumps etc..the results i witnessed first hand



#4 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 05:00 PM

I thought one of the weaknesses was the oil pump drive gears and shaft. Has anything been done in this area?



#5 _LH SLR 3300_

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:28 PM

Yes, the factory Holden pump has what are called "spur" gears, same as a SBC. The reason why the SBC doesn't suffer the same problem with the 308 is the oil pump is mounted internally whereas the 308 is mounted externally. This means the pump has a lot further to draw the oil from the sump & then pass it through the oil galleries etc than what it has to with the Chev. Ned's pump works on a "G rotor" design which is much better at drawing the oil & holding the pressure. Another advantage of Ned's pump design is it can be easily primed before initial start up on a new engine by pouring a liberal amount of oil down the pressure gauge hole, usually the Holden pump needs to be primed with Vasoline or grease before fitting it to the engine.



#6 _mumbo_

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:41 PM

Sounds good but I don't no why everyone has so much dramers I run STD oil pump with no oil system mods and have no problems .
I realise it would be a diferant story if I was doing burnout comps or circuit work but for drags and street I don't have any problems ;)

#7 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 08:12 PM

Yes, the factory Holden pump has what are called "spur" gears, same as a SBC. The reason why the SBC doesn't suffer the same problem with the 308 is the oil pump is mounted internally whereas the 308 is mounted externally. This means the pump has a lot further to draw the oil from the sump & then pass it through the oil galleries etc than what it has to with the Chev. Ned's pump works on a "G rotor" design which is much better at drawing the oil & holding the pressure. Another advantage of Ned's pump design is it can be easily primed before initial start up on a new engine by pouring a liberal amount of oil down the pressure gauge hole, usually the Holden pump needs to be primed with Vasoline or grease before fitting it to the engine.

 

It's "gerotor". And you'd better make sure you've got a good, fine screen fitted to the suction. Junk that will pass through a gear pump without problem can lock a gerotor solid. Just ask the Ford and Chrysler guys.



#8 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 10:17 PM

Yes, the factory Holden pump has what are called "spur" gears, same as a SBC. The reason why the SBC doesn't suffer the same problem with the 308 is the oil pump is mounted internally whereas the 308 is mounted externally. This means the pump has a lot further to draw the oil from the sump & then pass it through the oil galleries etc than what it has to with the Chev. Ned's pump works on a "G rotor" design which is much better at drawing the oil & holding the pressure. Another advantage of Ned's pump design is it can be easily primed before initial start up on a new engine by pouring a liberal amount of oil down the pressure gauge hole, usually the Holden pump needs to be primed with Vasoline or grease before fitting it to the engine.

 

I was talking about the actual drive gear on the cam. I have seen a few gears chewed out and heard of shafts snapping.

 

gear.preview.JPG



#9 TerrA LX

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 09:23 AM


^ I cracked the retainer once at 7500rpm. The cam walked the block and popped the rear plug.
And no, it was not on purpose. 175 stockers will do that sometimes.

Edited by TerrA LX, 22 April 2013 - 09:23 AM.


#10 76lxhatch

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:19 PM

I'm with Mumbo in terms of street use, as long as you don't run the pump dry (lots of people do this for various, usually stupid, reasons) you don't lose oil pressure. Racing is obviously another story.

Those are very high pressures quoted at quite low rpm, any reason for that? A factory pump won't go over 60psi as it has a relief valve designed to stop it from doing so (not very useful if you raise the rev limit but).

ls2lxhatch from what I've seen most drive gears chew out due to installing a high pressure pump which adds a bit more load, and blocking the timing chain oiler which also oils this gear. Don't get me started on what I think of that modification...

#11 mr5000

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:07 AM

what sort of price we talking these are going to go for i havent had any major issues with oil pressure yet in any of my motors but it still is low



#12 TerrA LX

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:30 AM

what sort of price we talking these are going to go for i havent had any major issues with oil pressure yet in any of my motors but it still is low

When you say "haven't had any MAJOR issues", I presume you mean failures, but you have not had the motor apart to check for major cam/bearing wear etc due to starvation?

#13 _LH SLR 3300_

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:35 PM

Ned is the best person to talk to about it. He doesn't advertise much & a lot of his business is through word of mouth, which is why I posted this thread. His is a friend of mine. Neither Ned or myself claim this to be the be all end all fix it for the Holden V8, but more so as an option to aid in curing a problem that some, obviously not all, 308s seem to suffer. I seems to me every time I post something I feel may be of benefit to others on this forum, there are always people second guessing me & criticizing. The main reason why I don't post here much now.



#14 76lxhatch

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:16 PM

Its definitely interesting and I'm sure its useful in certain circumstances, as you say you didn't claim it to be the be all and end all. I guess there's a fine line between criticism and curiosity but I think both can be constructive, for my own part I'd still like to know more about the reasoning for such high pressure if you have any more info.

#15 N/A-PWR

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:49 PM

Hi LH SLR 3300,

I am not sure why I do big ends in when thrashing a red 6 at above 7500rpm all the time, it is either the standard bearing needing an upgrade, or wearing away because there is not enough oil pressure. Dave I

 

p.s. not worried about re-doing short motors as it is all fun and is the first weakest link to save the motor as it lets you know when is going

p.p.s.  if it is oil pressure, you all are on to something which is well worth the efforts



#16 _LH SLR 3300_

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:15 PM

Curiosity is welcomed, criticism over the spelling of a term/name such a "gerotor" is a bit unfair I think. But then left school in 1986 at the end of year 9 & i'm only a dumb ass panel beater, so I apologise if I don't get my spelling & grammar 100% correct every time. Plus, I am only relaying info given to me by the constructor of this pump, next time i'll be sure to ask him how to spell each word etc. Anyhow, from what Ned told me, the standard pumps work OK for stock or mild engines. The 308 was never designed as a high performance engine, GM had the SBC for that. From what I gather, the more power made by an internal combustion engine, the more friction & heat is generated. Engine oil tends to thin out & due to the proximity of the pick up to the pump on a 308 plus the design of the spur gears, the pressure can drop. Ned has told me of engines he's built reading as low as 0psi at idle after several dyno runs when the oil is almost literally boiling. I might add that we're not talking about 400bhp 308s here, we're talking about 550+bhp 355 stroker engines. I've seen Ned push 600+bhp out of N/A 355s on several occasions & I watched him dyno a 6/71 charged 355 that made close to 700bhp on E85 with 6psi of boost & a small profile hydraulic cam. Even on milder engines, I've noticed that on hot days & hard driving, the oil gauge or light has started to flicker on low pressure at low revs or idle speed. Again, i'm not a mechanic by a long shot, I only put this thread up for the benefit of forum members & some free advertising for my friend. I'm not getting any commission for any pumps he may sell, i'm only trying to help a friend, so as such, he would be the best person to speak to for anyone interested in knowing more about the pump or purchasing one. I feel i'd be leaving myself open to more berating & criticism if I add too much more to this thread myself.



#17 TerrA LX

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:21 PM

I seems to me every time I post something I feel may be of benefit to others on this forum, there are always people second guessing me & criticizing. The main reason why I don't post here much now.

Don't let it bother you Matt, I look forward to your posts, and anyhow it's the internet, full of keyboard warriors who know better.

#18 N/A-PWR

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:24 PM

Great Words LH SLR 3300,

We may all be one thing or another, but just say how it really is and feel good about it.

Learning about other efforts is great when there is evidence of its nature. Dave I



#19 _LH SLR 3300_

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:51 PM

Thanks for the reassurance guys. I thought I might relay an example of a high performance 308-355 that would most likely benefit from this pump. Most veteran forum members would know of unclefestal34s super tough Chrome Yellow L34 & it's exploits on the quarter mile strip. This car has run 11.1@123mph through a super T10 manual trans & lifts the front wheels off the ground. In it's first incarnation, it ran a best of 11.4@118mph until the engine lost pressure after a meet & had to be refurbished. Ned was the man responsible for the build which saw the power increase to well over 450bhp with phenominal torque. Knowing Joe & how he drives his L34, i'm sure he wouldn't hesitate in advocating Ned's pump in the interest of preserving his engine.



#20 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:02 PM

Curiosity is welcomed, criticism over the spelling of a term/name such a "gerotor" is a bit unfair I think...

 

My apologies mate, I'll be the first to admit I can be a bit of a smart-arse at times. And I get what you're saying about the second-guessing and so on, but if you'd like to share any more info on this subject I for one would be interested.



#21 Hell34

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:08 PM

It's not a new discovery I have one in the shed at home it's the same it also uses a Chrysler 361/383 oil pump and can make 100 psi cold and it used to blow the rear cam plug out

I've had it for about 15 years

#22 _mumbo_

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:12 PM

Shit mate I can't spell either I'm 41 now so it's not going to change ;)
Any envention to help holdens is a good one whether I think I need it or not I'm sure some people will find it a life saver

#23 unclefestal34s

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:21 PM

Matt...

you've done a great job explaining this topic if anybody is genuinly interested is this oil pump or its workings kindly phone Ned at Hercules competition engines on 02-9718-0189 bus hours....

Ned has spent a great deal of time and effort on this matter and would more than happy to chat about it..

i for one have learnt a lot from Ned's dyno..



#24 fatslr

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:44 PM

 Great thread it is awsome to think that someone ie "Ned"  has so much passion to try and find a solution to a well known problem and root cause of premature engine wear  on 308s

 

    If it keeps Joe's L34 lubricated it has got to be a good thing.

 

  I find my own answer to ongoing problem 

 

"BUY A CHEV"  :stirpot:  :stirpot:  :stirpot:  :stirpot:  :stirpot: 



#25 bullitA9X

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:51 PM

LH SLR 3300 love this thread mate as I will be building a 383 stroker soon so this is great news as its always a problem with 308's although a lot of people don't relise it but a lot of engine wear is oil related....and don't let people spoil your good input mate who gives a fkuc if a word is spelt wrong im sure oldjohnno didn't mean anything buy it we need people such as yourself that have input.... like a few people have already said they don't post much on here anymore because of it and that's a real shame....     


Edited by bullitljv8, 23 April 2013 - 11:04 PM.





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