Jump to content


Photo

Aussie 4 speed v Muncie, what's the difference?


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#1 LOR-411

LOR-411

    Forum Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 56 posts
  • Name:jim
  • Location:holbart
  • Joined: 30-July 13

Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:56 PM

Hi all, got a gear box question and I know this is the place to get it answered.

 

I am a Holden man through and through and have been brought up with Holden three speed and Aussie four speed boxes with all their ratios but what is the relationship between these Holden boxes and the Muncie boxes?

 

I know that the Muncies are Chev boxes but are the Aussie boxes the same as the Muncies, copies, made under licence in Australia or completely different?

 

Just trying to clear up some headaches from the eighties.

 

Thanks, Bruce



#2 S pack

S pack

    Scrivet Counter

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,369 posts
  • Name:Dave
  • Location:Luggage Point
  • Car:73 LJ
  • Joined: 25-January 10

Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:07 PM

Hey Bruce

 

I don't know all that much about the Muncie boxes except that the Aussie M20, M21 & M22 boxes appear to be copied (not exactly though) from the Muncie and then under engineered to suit Aussie conditions.  :stirpot: 



#3 yel327

yel327

    Oh My, Don't you post alot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,983 posts
  • Joined: 10-February 08

Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:11 PM

Think PeeWee Herman as Aussie 4spd and Muncie as Arnold Schwarzenegger. Same basic design. One is good for 150hp, one 300-450hp or thereabouts. Maybe think Opel box vs Aussie 4spd sort of scale.



#4 LHSL308

LHSL308

    Lotsa Posts!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,309 posts
  • Location:Vic
  • Car:75 LH L32 308
  • Joined: 10-October 11

Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:30 PM

I just put in a Muncie M20 4 speed and upgraded the gearset to Muncie M22 from a Saginaw 4 speed.The gearsets are completely interchangable although the M22 gearset is quite expensive. They do say that these M22's can handle up to 700HP, I am pushing 400HP but always like to have plenty in reserve. A Saginaw is said to be a fair bit stronger than the Aussie 4 speed then the Muncie M20/M21 is stronger again and lastly  the Muncie M22 vastly stronger than the M20/M21 Muncie. Not to mention I like the sound of the Muncie M22 gears if you've ever heard what gear drives sound like only not as loud.

 

 

Fair bit of information in this thread about the Muncie.

 

http://www.gmh-toran...ncie-v-saginaw/


Edited by Gonedeaf, 24 August 2013 - 06:32 PM.


#5 Redzone

Redzone

    Forum Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 471 posts
  • Name:Dave
  • Location:Sunshine Coast
  • Car:Mini torana's - Gemini coupe [email protected], log booked Group A DOHC Gemini under resto..
  • Joined: 02-November 10

Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:55 PM

Muncie M22's came out in big block chevs in the states, including the mighty L88 Corvettes & the ZL1 Camaro, they were nicknamed the "rock crusher", quote apt when you hear the low helix angle gears!

#6 niterida

niterida

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,114 posts
  • Name:Ken
  • Location:Geraldton WA
  • Car:UC Hatch
  • Joined: 23-October 09

Posted 24 August 2013 - 08:24 PM

AFAIK the Aussie M20 is based on an Opel box and the M20 designation is just a GMH option code - got absolutely no relationship to a Muncie.

 

Muncie :

 

rsgm20-vpu100_5494.JPG

 

Aussie :

$(KGrHqZ,!qIFHGMM)ybqBR6m+ekrzQ~~48_20.J



#7 S pack

S pack

    Scrivet Counter

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,369 posts
  • Name:Dave
  • Location:Luggage Point
  • Car:73 LJ
  • Joined: 25-January 10

Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:24 PM

AFAIK the Aussie M20 is based on an Opel box and the M20 designation is just a GMH option code - got absolutely no relationship to a Muncie.

Correct M20, 21, 22 are just option codes. The Opel 4 spd used in HR, HK, HT, HG and LC was coded M20 just like the Aussie 4spd box that replaced it in late LC and for LJ & HQ onwards.

 

If you are referring to the Aussie M20 being based on the Opel M20 that GMH used then my money is on the Muncie.



#8 BIG KEV

BIG KEV

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,120 posts
  • Name:Kevin
  • Location:SYDNEY
  • Car:LHSLR5000 and The 6LT Project
  • Joined: 02-January 12

Posted 25 August 2013 - 08:42 AM

ok ....just to add more fuel to the fire and you want to keep all GM ......if Muncie is better /stronger than Aussie where and how dose a Super T-10 rate ....I believe that these were in the A9X 's.................



#9 yel327

yel327

    Oh My, Don't you post alot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,983 posts
  • Joined: 10-February 08

Posted 25 August 2013 - 08:55 AM

Super T10 was used by GM once the high torque big blocks were finished and the Muncies were no longer required. The T10 was introduced in the 50's, and GM sold the design to Borg Warner who improved it into the Super T10. A great box and strong but sits somewhere bewteen a Saginaw and a Muncie. In reality a small block box. Good for thing like A9X's.

 

The Aussie 4spd is a basic scale model copy of a Muncie design. Totally different box but same design with reverse in the extension housing unlike a Saginaw.



#10 BIG KEV

BIG KEV

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,120 posts
  • Name:Kevin
  • Location:SYDNEY
  • Car:LHSLR5000 and The 6LT Project
  • Joined: 02-January 12

Posted 25 August 2013 - 09:18 AM

So at the end of the day it would be wise to just use a Muncie box .....I think I read some where you can still buy them ????



#11 yel327

yel327

    Oh My, Don't you post alot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,983 posts
  • Joined: 10-February 08

Posted 25 August 2013 - 10:14 AM

Depends on your application. A Super T10 is a good box and i'd use it for most applications. You'd only want the Muncie for big torque applications like a 377ci-400ci small block or big blocks. New Muncies are available and cheap and stronger than the originals. New Super T10's are available too and from what i've heard better than the originals too, so much so a new Super T10 would be as good as or better than original spec M20 or M21 Muncie.



#12 76lxhatch

76lxhatch

    That was easy!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,488 posts
  • Location:Unzud
  • Car:SS
  • Joined: 04-August 08
Garage View Garage

Posted 25 August 2013 - 10:49 AM

I did a lot of research on the best option and came to the conclusion that a Super T10 or Muncie are basically equivalent, so it depends on what you can get your hands on. New versions of both are readily available at reasonable and similar prices with various improvements. The main strength of the Super T10 is a few more available gear ratio options and has been manufactured by Richmond for a number of years, which I assume is why it tends to be more popular in circuit racing applications. Wider (non-factory) ratio options have since been brought out for the Muncie too. Weight and size are very similar (as is the design).

 

I went with a Muncie because one popped up for the right price and I don't regret it at all. The key to any of these boxes is getting a good shifter.

 

The Aussie 4 speed is to a Muncie or Super T10 what a Banjo diff is to a nine inch - perfectly good design but just implemented on smaller scale so its only suitable for smaller torque output. Put the gears side by side and you see the difference in size. The Aussie 3 and 4 speeds also placed the shift levers are on the right side, making it suitable for right hand drive particularly in column shift (3 speed) applications.



#13 myss427

myss427

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,408 posts
  • Location:Canberra
  • Car:427 hatch, CV8 Monaro, Ve SSV ute. Was part owner A9X sedan until he sold it without telling me!
  • Joined: 17-November 05
Garage View Garage

Posted 25 August 2013 - 12:25 PM

I did the same, researched quite a bit and found that the newer Super T10's are pretty well a muncie now without the almost straight cut gears. They have fixed most of the issues and if you go to the Richmond site, the gear sets are almost the same part numbers entirely.



#14 niterida

niterida

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,114 posts
  • Name:Ken
  • Location:Geraldton WA
  • Car:UC Hatch
  • Joined: 23-October 09

Posted 25 August 2013 - 12:29 PM

I had an aussie 4 speed behind my 5litre VK Group 3 and it blew changing down from 4th to 3rd and flattened the throttle at about 80kmh !!

Replacement box blew just accelarating hard in 2nd. Upgraded the box with supposedly unbreakable internals - basically thicker shafts that wouldn't flex which was supposed to hold the gear teeth together better. Didn't work - blew changing from 1st to 2nd while "takimg off spiritedly from a set of lights" *

Replaced that with another set of 'unbreakable' internals and the new owenr reported that also blew soon afterwards.

 

Now you may think I was just thrashing it or being ham-fisted but apart from the 1st-2nd blow up all other instances the car was not being thrashed or even driven particularly hard. The motor was only putting out about 250hp. And this is the only car I have ever had a major mechanical failure in.

 

So I would stay away from an aussie box behind a v8



#15 BIG KEV

BIG KEV

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,120 posts
  • Name:Kevin
  • Location:SYDNEY
  • Car:LHSLR5000 and The 6LT Project
  • Joined: 02-January 12

Posted 25 August 2013 - 12:43 PM

A while ago I did some homework about fitting a T56 that I got from the states .....I am now thinking about fitting a Super T-10 as it is just easier to get it all to fit in ....



#16 unclefestal34s

unclefestal34s

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Joined: 02-April 07

Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:52 PM

somewhere between saginaw and muncie my arse pal...

 

it really shows how much experience you've had with these gearboxes..

i currently run both these gearboxes in my cars ...

borg warner super t10 in my L34 452 HP 450 foot pounds of torque as many forum members have seen this particular car of mine they would support the punishment i dish out to this box...

i've also used b/w super t10s behind high powered chev small and big blocks with over 500hp and never broken one..

i also use a muncie m22 rockcrusher in my 69 camaro which makes close to 500hp on the street and have used common muncie boxes to support over 450 horses...

like anything age,wear and fatigue play a big part

i base my trival arguement on well over 30years  experience with both gearboxes

the aussie 4speed was designed for a 4 cylinder let alone 6 cylinder and are great for them once you increase the power and torque in v8 form they don't like it..

Super T10 was used by GM once the high torque big blocks were finished and the Muncies were no longer required. The T10 was introduced in the 50's, and GM sold the design to Borg Warner who improved it into the Super T10. A great box and strong but sits somewhere bewteen a Saginaw and a Muncie. In reality a small block box. Good for thing like A9X's.

 

The Aussie 4spd is a basic scale model copy of a Muncie design. Totally different box but same design with reverse in the extension housing unlike a Saginaw.



#17 yel327

yel327

    Oh My, Don't you post alot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,983 posts
  • Joined: 10-February 08

Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:12 PM

I stand by what I say, and what you say only supports the statement. A 1970's Super T10 as fitted to GM powered vehicles (once the high hp/torque BBC's were finished) sits somewhere between a Saginaw and Muncie in strength. Read the post 2 x posts down about ST10's of today.



#18 Bomber Watson

Bomber Watson

    Not nearly as smart as Lazarus

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,583 posts
  • Name:DJ
  • Location:Rockhampton, the exact center of my own TINY universe. Also the home of the worlds longest location.
  • Car:Mixed fleet of Taxi's and hair dresser mobiles.
  • Joined: 07-November 05

Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:28 PM

Yeah, you both said the same thing lol.

#19 LHSL308

LHSL308

    Lotsa Posts!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,309 posts
  • Location:Vic
  • Car:75 LH L32 308
  • Joined: 10-October 11

Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:30 PM

I have done a lot of research of this very matter in recent times even to the point of reading lots of forums in the U.S. IMO the super T10 sits somewhere between the M22 rockcrusher and the M20/M21 Muncies and the Saginaw is another notch down again. Yel327 has a lot more experience than me when it comes to these boxes. 

 

The bottom line is if your running a V8 an Aussie is just out of the question, it will just not last.



#20 yel327

yel327

    Oh My, Don't you post alot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,983 posts
  • Joined: 10-February 08

Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:49 PM

Unclefestas has far more experience with these than I do. My experience is with pulling them apart to see how they tick!

#21 a9x868

a9x868

    maurice mead of hatchbacks

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,384 posts
  • Name:facebook dave
  • Location:perth miles n miles from shiney
  • Car:valencia holden torana a9x hatch ultimate improvement on the barbados L34
  • Joined: 24-July 11

Posted 25 August 2013 - 08:44 PM

I have done a lot of research of this very matter in recent times even to the point of reading lots of forums in the U.S. IMO the super T10 sits somewhere between the M22 rockcrusher and the M20/M21 Muncies and the Saginaw is another notch down again. Yel327 has a lot more experience than me when it comes to these boxes. 
 
The bottom line is if your running a V8 an Aussie is just out of the question, it will just not last.

some of us don't have a choice!
must drive it accordingly i guess

#22 unclefestal34s

unclefestal34s

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Joined: 02-April 07

Posted 25 August 2013 - 09:32 PM

supports nothing ...they stopped making muncie gearboxes in 1974 from 70 to 74 they used muncie fine spline with the turbo 400 output (32 spline) ..

then from then on they used the borg warner super t10s 2nd design,..in all the chev powered cars..

as far your saginaws go there tad stronger than your aussie 4speed...the t10 boxes made during the latel 50s 60s were probaly on par with your saginaws..

i don't need to read posts as i come from a drag racing back ground and have used both muncies and super t10s with great success and no there strengths..

and yes i've stripped as many boxes as i care to talk about and know how they tick and there weakness and strengths are..

personally speaking a saginaw doesn't rate let alone a aussie 4speed..

I stand by what I say, and what you say only supports the statement. A 1970's Super T10 as fitted to GM powered vehicles (once the high hp/torque BBC's were finished) sits somewhere between a Saginaw and Muncie in strength. Read the post 2 x posts down about ST10's of today.



#23 BIG KEV

BIG KEV

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,120 posts
  • Name:Kevin
  • Location:SYDNEY
  • Car:LHSLR5000 and The 6LT Project
  • Joined: 02-January 12

Posted 25 August 2013 - 10:01 PM

I have been in Joes car and I know for a fact this guy has a heavy right foot and a slippery left foot .....I don't think anyone would keep a box in a car like his if they are crap .....and this brings me back to my first post in this thread .....we all need a strong box to handle the power out put.....each to their own



#24 LOR-411

LOR-411

    Forum Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 56 posts
  • Name:jim
  • Location:holbart
  • Joined: 30-July 13

Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:14 PM

But the Aussie four speed is fine behind an XU-1 spec six?



#25 warrenm

warrenm

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,804 posts
  • Location:Central West NSW
  • Car:1972 LJ Torana
  • Joined: 08-November 05
Garage View Garage

Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:53 AM

But the Aussie four speed is fine behind an XU-1 spec six?

As long as you don't abuse it & drive accordingly.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users