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Engine block crankcase markings 1970 to 1974


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#1 _Mike73_

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 02:34 PM

Hello all,

             I thought it may be usefull to show how many crankcase marking were used from start to finish of XU-1 production and their engine replacement parts such as NP blocks up to Aug 1974.

These were the scratched markings made by hand into the sand moulds before the blocks were cast, these show as a raised mark inside the crankcase area on the left side of the engine.

 

My research shows that prior to the period of study X and O were the markings used and by July 1969 the == ( two full lines ) marking were starting to be used both in 186 and 161 engine blocks, there is an example of replacement block and piston set dated Dec 1969 which had the earlier O mark but largely by the time of our study in August 1970 the X and == marks were in normal use.

 

I have found a Nasco NJ of July 1972 with this O mark and others stamped JP seen in August 1972 and a QL in December 72 with the O mark, it seems that these O marks show up at July/ August and December, perhaps the person making them was relieving on school holidays?

 

The majority of the XU-1's in 1972 and 1973 had the X mark though there are a few which still used the == marking the HQ QL stamped blocks also shared these same markings.

The dual date 173 was included in the == markings in July 73 though they possibly had both X and == marks.

 

I have a record of a QL in Dec 72, a JL in March 1973 and another JL in September 73 with the O mark but all others found so far have the X or == marks.

 

By 1974 markings continued to be the X and == marks and in late August 74 NP replacements will have had both though I have only a record of the == mark and by this time the blocks changed externally to include the three ribs behind the oil pump, but after this time the markings were simply extra long horizintal lines or something quite different.

 

All information has been the result of several years of my research but it is still a work in progress at the moment.

 

Mike


Edited by Mike73, 02 October 2013 - 02:35 PM.


#2 Bazza

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:04 PM

Hi Mike

 

Any idea about these markings? The number 4650 is Holden's standard font but it is not the engine number. It has the parallel lines and also the letter R.  Is the punch mark some kind of hardness test?

 

Cheers

 

Bazza

 

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#3 _sunburst73-xu1_

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:33 PM

Bazza I'm not saying this is right but some times Engine rebuild shops/machine shops used to stamp numbers in these areas to identify blocks so they wouldn't be handed back to the wrong customer.

 

just a thought.

cheers



#4 _Skapinad_

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:03 PM

Curiosity got the better of me.....

I have a standard bore 161 sitting in the front yard.

Cast date L170

Started scraping off the sump gasket and look what i found.

image_zpsab8b9060.jpg

image_zpsb40e9e79.jpg

image_zpscb75d6e6.jpg

photo_zps05724f3c.jpg

Edited by Gonad Gobbler, 02 October 2013 - 05:06 PM.


#5 Bazza

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:30 PM

Hi all

 

Interesting - although not sure what it means. 3 years apart with the same markings. One a 161 the other a 202.

 

 

 

Perhaps Mike will know.

 

Cheers

 

Bazza

 

 

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Edited by Bazza, 02 October 2013 - 05:35 PM.


#6 _sunburst73-xu1_

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:40 PM

wow that is interesting now its going to get the better of me too,I have 5 blocks in my shed 2 of which have standard bores after I finish throwing this turbo motor in my 4 door I will be having a spring clean up in the shed,so I will be having a look at mine.

 

cheers



#7 RallyRed

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 07:44 PM

Hi guys,

 

I may be way off on this one, but this is from another forum ( aussie v8 com au )..... assume the logic would apply for 6s and 8s ?...it includes the quote ""- I worked on the final hone machine at F'mans Bend '76-77.""

 

..............i have noticed a few blocks with numbers stamped on the the bottom where the sump bolts up, the one i have here has a number 10 stamped down on side opposite the bores and the other side has two 10 one 9 and one 11? what do they refer to?thanks

 

.........Pending on the maker they are for selective parts, normally the ones on Holdens and Chev are for selecting the right size piston for the bore on assy line, you will notice 4 numbers per side. Toyota are the same but stamped on head face.

Toyota oil pan face has 5 numbers, these represent the main crank bore diameters, crankshaft has also 5 numbers to represent main journal diameters, these are added together
Say no 1 main is 2+3 = 5, then operator selects a No 5 bearing for that journal. It is so you can get the right clearances when all tolerances are taken into account.

Once you rehone or rebore a motor they are meaningless.

Cheers

 

.....

 Yeah mate, it's for piston size- I worked on the final hone machine at F'mans Bend '76-77. The253s were a piece of piss to do, but the thin wall 308s were a nightmare at times. Ovality and taper were the hardest to rectify, and because of the thin cylinder walls, some days there would be pallets of 308s go back to the foundry for recasting. Cheers.

 

 

 

...



#8 _Mike73_

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 08:34 PM

Yes Bazza I did know the 11, 12 etc were the piston grading sizes, if you look at the parts books it gives standard and high limit pistons, these are for slight variations in the honing final size as it is not an exact operation, skilled operators get quite close but slight variations still occurr.

 

The initals on the face also are reconditioners initals or ID not so the customer doesn't get the wrong engine but the other way aroud, so the reconditioner does not give warranty on some other reconditioners engine work. Some reconditioners put letters or numbers on the engine number pad too to make identification of their work easier.  Please note the "R" below the engine number on NP 7000 series blocks is not a reconditioners mark indications are that it was made by Holden for a specific reason, but that is a topic for another time. 

 

By the way you do know these are not the markings I was referring to don't you?

 

Mike  



#9 Bazza

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 12:44 PM

Hi Mike

 

I thought you may be able to tell me what the 4650 and the R means. The R may mean something on the NP number pad, but we are talking about where the gasket faces up. It also appears on Adam's 161.

 

If you don't know - just say so.

 

Cheers

 

Bazza



#10 _Mike73_

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 11:54 PM

Hello Bazza,

                   I could just say no, but I am reasonably sure as I saw my Cousin stamping one of my 308 engines with his initals as he completed the machining work, my cousin is an engine reconditioner.

 

4650 may be a job number or batch number as these engines were reconditioned on production lines for bigger firms.

 

Mike



#11 Bazza

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:46 AM

Hi Mike

 

That doesn't sound right to me. The 4650 is the same size and font as the engine number. My engine has never been rebuilt and it is hardly likely that Adam's engine was rebuilt by the same rebuilder in any case. The R obviously means something.

 

Never mind - I guess it will remain one of life's imponderables.

 

Cheers

 

Bazza



#12 _Mike73_

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 10:30 PM

Bazza, sounds like you set me up, I should have asked for more information, I vaugely remember seeing main bearing caps stamped like that too, perhaps someone who has first hand experience will know for sure?

 

I have had people state previously that their engine was never touched before, you did not state which engine you were referring either.

After seeing 1972 XU-1's blow up at Bathurst many people went out and had their engines balanced within the first 12 months or a little after, this saved many engines, and in the passage of time people state that all XU-1 engines had special balancing which included markings as you state but who knows now if it was reallty original or not?

 

Mike



#13 Bazza

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 10:56 PM

Hi Mike

 

Set you up? I have no axe to grind with you.  I just thought it was odd that a 1970 161S engine had an R stamped in the same place on the sump gasket face of the block as a 1973 NP. Surely it means something? Have you seen it before?

 

As an aside, I also asked if you knew what the 4650 (not the same number as the engine number and in GMH factory font) meant. If you don't know - it doesn't matter. I do however object to the accusation that I set you up in some way - what on earth would I have to gain?

 

Cheers (and peace out)

 

Bazza



#14 _Mike73_

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 01:25 PM

Hi Mike

 

Set you up? I have no axe to grind with you.  I just thought it was odd that a 1970 161S engine had an R stamped in the same place on the sump gasket face of the block as a 1973 NP. Surely it means something? Have you seen it before?

 

As an aside, I also asked if you knew what the 4650 (not the same number as the engine number and in GMH factory font) meant. If you don't know - it doesn't matter. I do however object to the accusation that I set you up in some way - what on earth would I have to gain?

 

Cheers (and peace out)

 

Bazza

Hello Bazza,

                  not your fault, there are just a number of tyre kickers on the forum who just make trouble, obviously you are not one of them, sorry. 

You put my guard up when you said If you don't know don't say you do.

I have had another look at my records and see that I do have a record of an engine with the R on the sump flange, but I don't remember if it had the four digit numbers like the ones you mention.

That engine was an XU-1 engine made in March 73 but sorry I do not know what it means.

 

Racing engines would normally have a different Identification for the Mid 72 to mid 74 period and obviously the R on a stock 161 would probably not be for racing, but your 161S is a distinct possibility. NP with an R would also be a posibility for racing.

I also have a 161 here which has an "R" as part of the engine number I thought this was to signify that it was a replacement, but I cannot see a reference in my books to the R meaning high compression as suggested to me.

 

There are three different instances where the R appears on 6cyl blocks;

1.

As part of the engine number.  found on several different size engines like 161R9487* A 23 9, and even V8's like ZR 1057**R  28 J 9

2.

Seperate to the engine number on a lower level, found on NP 7000 series engines, 72 - 74 and rarely if ever on anything else.

3.

On the gassket face like you have described.  on several different engines from 161 to 202 JP engines.

 

Draw your own conclusions, but my bet is that the "R" means different things at different times.

While the R at times does mean racing there are times when the racing engines were not clearly Identified externally, there is a slight posibility that your R may account for this, but no doubt there will be those with a differnt theory.

Mike   


Edited by Mike73, 05 October 2013 - 01:33 PM.


#15 yel327

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 01:48 PM

R on the end of an engine or chassis number means REPEAT.



#16 _Mike73_

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 01:52 PM

R on the end of an engine or chassis number means REPEAT.

Hello Yel327, do you have a reference source for that information? 

MIke



#17 robj

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:38 PM

Do we know what these marks were used to indicate? (the X and ==)

 

/Rob


Edited by robj, 17 October 2013 - 01:39 PM.


#18 _Mike73_

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:59 PM

Do we know what these marks were used to indicate? (the X and ==)

 

/Rob

Hello Rob, the simple answer is no we don't, but are making efforts to find out.

 

There seems to be two main ones at any one point in time up till 1974 with a third used for try out bocks, but I could be wrong so please don't quote me.

 

From what I have been able to find out there were two main mould shops with individual furnaces  at this time so it could be that these stood for the seperate areas, but my bet is that it stood for the persons who were making up the sand moulds. this would account for three different markings at a time.   Only time will reveal this, and those who may know are keeping it to themselves for the moment.

 

I think it could be like the old stone masons who put theiir mark on their work.

There is a forum member who was involved in a foundry and may know but he has gone quiet lately, perhaps he can give us the benifit of his experience.

 

One for shure is that tracability is required for warranty and try out purposes, please note that this is in reference to the internal markings only.

 

Mike 


Edited by Mike73, 17 October 2013 - 06:03 PM.


#19 _Skapinad_

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:40 PM

Was my 161 made at the same place as Bazzas 202 ?

How many foundaries existed?

And which foundaries supplied which plants ?

#20 _Mike73_

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:56 PM

Was my 161 made at the same place as Bazzas 202 ?

How many foundaries existed?

And which foundaries supplied which plants ?

 

One of the forum members said that there was two furnaces and acompanying moulding areas within the same foundry.

It is common place in industry to duplicate their infrustructure to increase production when their original equipment is still servicable, this may account for two furnaces, but I cannot be certain of this.

 

There is no evidence that any engines were cast outside of Holden, though some outside machining may have taken place, more research is being undertaken on this subject.

 

Mike



#21 xu2308

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 10:35 AM

Mike the 308 V8's with the X on them, what dates do they fall in, say 1972, 1973, 1974 I am thinking



#22 A9X

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 10:56 AM

GMH had two foundries sold not long ago, part of the internal tightening up of their operation.

 

this was from the auction ad :

 

GM Holden has two large scale CAST IRON foundry shops . One is exclusively used for the Family II 4 cylinder engine and the other shop is for other major parts such as crank shaft, cam shaft, flywheel and others. This cylinder block foundry shop consists of melting furnaces, moulding machines, sand mixing & recycling system, core making machine and environmental equipment. All major machines and equipment were provided by world famous top brand manufacturers and well maintained by GM Holden’s experts.



Foundry 1.

Melt Floor: 30Ton per hour notional capacity
4 x ABB 10 Ton per hour (notional) induction melt furnaces each with 9.8 MVA transformer and control gear
Molding line: 220 Moulds/hr
• Pouring: Manned overhead crane, 2 TON/Batch x 350kW
Green Sand Mixing: 250Ton/hr

3 x Bierdsley Piper 80 t.p.h. Sand Mixers
Extensive Sand Storage and reclaim system comprising shake units, vibratory apron feeders, conveyor and elevated conveyor networks.


Hundreds Mould Boxes and other stillages
Massive qty of spare electric motors, head and tail pulleys etc....


Foundry 2.

DISAMATIC Foundry
Melt Shop: 2 x ABB Pantech 10
Ton per hour – 1Source / 2Body- medium frequency induction melt furnaces with transformers
• Moulding line: 330 Moulds/hr
• Pouring: Manual Hoisting System/Mono Rail System
Green Sand Mixing: 40Ton/hr

Fettling Shop

2 x Robot Fettling cells
8 pass grinder
Crack detection
Shot blast plants
Pattern Shop
Modern Environmental fume & dust control system, scrubbers, bag houses

Chemical and additive dosing systems
UNUSED Foundry consumables and inventory
EXTENSIVE Foundry spare parts comprising electric motors, gearboxes, head pulleys, belting
EXTENSIVE DEMAG hot metal, magnet, materials handling cranes
2 x Gas fired bogie hearth heat treatment furnaces
100's heavy duty stillages
500 Tonne mild steel moulding flask boxes

Core Room

4 x Sutter core blowers
Loramendi Shar & Keycore CNC cold box core making line

2 x Laempe CNC Core Making Machines
2 x CNC 5 Axis KUKA Robots

 

there is a transcript of the speech by Harold Holt opening of the foundry in Feb 1967 here \

http://pmtranscripts...se.php?did=1496

 

there is also some info on the foundry in David Haywards "history of holden'

http://gmhistory.che...t_By_David.html



#23 N/A-PWR

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:40 AM

I have a 202 with #11 and an R stamped at #5 and just an #11 stamped at #6 pot:-

 

Attached File  202 block - 11 at 5 and 6 pot.jpg   17.99K   162 downloads

 

and an 'X' in the casting inside the sump at #1 2 3 4 5 and #6 pots. Dave I

Attached Files


Edited by TORYPOWER, 18 October 2013 - 11:47 AM.


#24 N/A-PWR

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:54 PM

My engine number is QL162128,

 

so it must be out of a 1971 HQ?

 

Block bored 0.060" picture details:-

 

Attached File  QL162128.jpg   12.3K   212 downloads

 

Attached File  IMG_3959.JPG   22.41K   178 downloads

 

Attached File  IMG_3958.JPG   19.73K   180 downloads



#25 S pack

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:43 PM

Dave, cast date 28th? April 72, so probably a May or June 1972 HQ.

 

Cheers

Dave.






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