23 replies to this topic

[TerrA LX]

Banjo V8 should fit the small salisbury.

[yel327]

VB-VH 253 diff will have the bigger yoke too.

[Dr Terry]

VB-VH 253 diff will have the bigger yoke too.

So will the VK EFI 6, but only the early ones. The later ones are BW.

 

Dr Terry

[ls2lxhatch]

It is strange that the engineer requires stronger universal joints but not a stronger diff.

 

Although the small salisbury is comparable in strength to a V8 banjo as far as I know the small salisbury was not factory fitted with anything larger than a 253. Therefore it is arguable that it is not legal under the NCOP to use the small salisbury with a 304 as the manufacturer does not considered it strong enough for a 304.

 

It would be worth looking at a BW 78 conversion instead of spending money on a diff that is marginal.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 29 January 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[ls2lxhatch]

I think you will also find that replacement discs for the UC small salisbury are no longer available.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 29 January 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Dr Terry]

I can see the engineer's point here.

From a safety angle, a broken uni joint leading to a dropped tailshaft is dangerous, whereas a broken diff is not.

Also many 307/308 V8s in HK/T/G had a banjo diff with a larger yoke as factory standard.

Dr Terry

[TerrA LX]

The yoke I suggested is fitted standard to 308CID opted Toranas.

[ls2lxhatch]

I thought about tailshaft vs diff and decided it depends on what breaks in the diff as to which is most dangerous.  An axle breaking in the wrong place can get exciting as can the centre letting go and locking the wheels. If the engineer is only concerned about dropping the tailshaft then a tailshaft loop could be fitted. Personally I would fit a tailshaft loop anyway.

 

At the of the day the engineer is only half doing his job, the UC small salisbury is not a suitable diff for a 304.

 

That said I did run a 308 auto with 6cyl tailshaft and banjo diff for around 200,000 kms. In that time I sheared the ends off a couple of axles and had one open centre explode. I only needed to replace the original factory universal joints once because they were getting a bit worn.

 

I think you are wasting your money changing yokes and building a tailshaft for a diff that is marginal with disc brakes that are no longer available.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 29 January 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[yel327]

If GMH decided a banjo was strong enough for LH and LX with 308, they would have also fitted the small salisbury with V8 yoke to UC if these were to have continued with a 308. So as an Engineer (i'm not an automotive Engineer but an Electrical Engineer) I view his opinion as fine. It is exactly the same conclusion I would come to.

[TerrA LX]

If GMH decided a banjo was strong enough for LH and LX with 308, they would have also fitted the small salisbury with V8 yoke to UC if these were to have continued with a 308. So as an Engineer (i'm not an automotive Engineer but an Electrical Engineer) I view his opinion as fine. It is exactly the same conclusion I would come to.

Agree, totally fine, with 175/60 13 tyres

[ls2lxhatch]

The reality is that the banjo was not strong enough for the LH/LX 308 with a M21.

 

Apparently GMH did fit the small salisbury to the 4.2L VB-VH however they chose not to fit it to the 5.0L VB-VH. Therefore GMH does not consider the small salisbury suitable for a 5.0L.

 

The stock VS 5.0L produces more torque than a stock LX 308 and the T5 has a lower first gear than the M21 which further increases the torque applied to the diff. The UC small salisbury is living on borrowed time.

[Dr Terry]

I don't think that the engineer's brief is to specify what is desirable. Even specifying the larger unis is questionable, but he is the certifying engineer & has the final say. If you don't agree, then choose another engineer.

Let's face it if that was the case Opels, Aussie 4-speeds, Banjos & Small Salisburys etc. etc. would be off the road for any performance application under that regime.

Having said that, GM-H used the Small Salibury behind the 4.2 V8 in WB Ute & Panel Van & they were more durable than the old Banjo.

Dr Terry

[ls2lxhatch]

NCOP3 Section LA Engine V2 01Jan2011
"The power and/or torque of the replacement engine must not exceed the capacity of the vehicle driveline."

 
NCOP4 Section LB Transmission V2 01Jan2011
"Any replacement gearbox or driveline components should have adequate torque capacity based on the output of the vehicle’s engine."

 
In WA the DPI has the final say on whether or not the vehicle can be registered. If the OP has completed an application to modify a light vehicle and has approval in principal to fit the VS 5.0L, T5 gearbox and retain the UC diff then once the engineer has completed his reports registration should not be a problem.


If the OP does not have approval in principal then the WA DPI could require a stronger diff to be fitted.

[yel327]

I don't think that the engineer's brief is to specify what is desirable. Even specifying the larger unis is questionable, but he is the certifying engineer & has the final say. If you don't agree, then choose another engineer.

Let's face it if that was the case Opels, Aussie 4-speeds, Banjos & Small Salisburys etc. etc. would be off the road for any performance application under that regime.

Having said that, GM-H used the Small Salibury behind the 4.2 V8 in WB Ute & Panel Van & they were more durable than the old Banjo.

Dr Terry

 

Terry which WB utes and vans with 4.2 had a small salsbury? I've often heard this was the case but never seen one and it doesn't appear in any documentation I can find.

[yel327]

The reality is that the banjo was not strong enough for the LH/LX 308 with a M21.

 

Apparently GMH did fit the small salisbury to the 4.2L VB-VH however they chose not to fit it to the 5.0L VB-VH. Therefore GMH does not consider the small salisbury suitable for a 5.0L.

 

The stock VS 5.0L produces more torque than a stock LX 308 and the T5 has a lower first gear than the M21 which further increases the torque applied to the diff. The UC small salisbury is living on borrowed time.

 

I agree, but an aussie 4spd isn't strong enough for a 308 either. Yet one of GMH's most successful race cars (the L34) raced with both!

 

An LH or LX built during HJ Holden production has a very high output 308, as does an L34 and both of these used a banjo, so in the compact size GMH car (the U sized LH-UC) the banjo was deemed to be capable, so i'm certain that the UC if fitted with a 308 (by then a choked up version of its former self) would have had a small salisbury. On the full size car (Holden) all V8's got a large salisbury. On the mid size (Commodore) they only fitted the large salisbury standard to the 5 litre cars. So it makes sence on the compact (Torana) the small salsbury would be used for all V8. It is also possible that like 6cyl Holden and 4.2L Commodore that large Salisbury may have been offered in the UC behind a V8 as a heavy duty option - they already had the design from A9X so why not! 

 

In the end it comes down to an Engineer showing that he is following the design principles of the original manufacturer. Whilst I agree a small salsbury is like a shear pin for a "fun" car, it is fine for an everyday cruiser and this is what the Engineer will be designing for. He is certifying it is fine for use on the roads used following normal road rules.

[yel327]

You could easily change it back to drums too using easy to get bits if need be,

[A9X]

interesting comments made from some guys whose opinions i take note of.

 

Especially with my 308 aussie 4 speed salisbury build underway. I'm comfortable that with mods to the warm 308, i've matched them with sensible mods to the box and the diff.

 

The fact i drive like a granddad should help a bit to !.

 

 

[hainzy]

Hey guys I know this is an old post, and thius is an old question, but Im in the middle of trying to sort this put too.

 

So what is an appropriate diff for lets say, a warm 253 and M20? I have one which goes pretty hard in my LX so I want a stronger diff to match.

 

I don't need a 9 inch as itll just be normal round town and freeway driving, with maybe the very occasional burst of acceleration when I get excited.

 

Everyone says Banjos are crap for any engine with power, so what should I go for?

 

Im thinking a V8 Banjo diff with 3.08 and V8 yoke? Or would I be better getting a Salisbury from a UC and putting a 3.08 centre and V8 yoke? Do these fit LX with the different floor pans?

 

Just wondering what the best option for a basic setup is without spending 4k on a 9 inch...

[Bigfella237]

In my opinion it's not worth converting to a UC Salisbury, the UCA mounts are different anyway so it's not a bolt-in swap.

 

253's are more known for horsepower at high revs rather than low down torque so if you can refrain from dropping the clutch too often it should look after the driveline better than something with more cubes.

 

I'd go for a fine spline V8 bango centre and axles.

 

While we're on the subject, one thing not factored into the "engineering" discussion above was tyres, remember that these cars came out with CR70H13's which would have been the weakest link in the driveline by far, a pressure valve if you like, these tyres would have broken traction usually before anything else got broken.

 

I don't think Holden engineers could ever have taken into account that one day somebody would bolt a huge pair of sticky 12" wide tyres on and then try to do burnouts?

[rexy]

Hey guys I know this is an old post, and thius is an old question, but Im in the middle of trying to sort this put too.
 
So what is an appropriate diff for lets say, a warm 253 and M20? I have one which goes pretty hard in my LX so I want a stronger diff to match.
 
I don't need a 9 inch as itll just be normal round town and freeway driving, with maybe the very occasional burst of acceleration when I get excited.
 
Everyone says Banjos are crap for any engine with power, so what should I go for?
 
Im thinking a V8 Banjo diff with 3.08 and V8 yoke? Or would I be better getting a Salisbury from a UC and putting a 3.08 centre and V8 yoke? Do these fit LX with the different floor pans?
 
Just wondering what the best option for a basic setup is without spending 4k on a 9 inch...

Why not stick with what you have and replace anything that breaks?
I don't see much point in spending money for a marginal increase in strength.
You should be able to do a nine inch conversion for less than 2K if you are a reasonable scrounger.