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tri,or parrallel 4 links regd in toranas


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#1 madtoranajzedded

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:11 PM

Hi guys,thought  i'd start a thread for gents who would like to share their pics who have just recently

had a tri y or parallel 4 link configuration setup,icv too, which is registered, or in the process of having it approved

for rego, would be good to have as much information as possible on subject for people who are wanting

to do such mods and use it as a reference for future projects.as finding the right engineer (vass)(vsccs)

can be somewhat difficult. tell us what workshops or engineers you are using or specialise in this field,

ph no and state,but bearing in mind,have permission from engineer before you put anything down.i dont know

whether this will get much of a response, if anything, as there is alot of talk out there if such a modification is truly

acceptable.

 

 

   cheers Maz



#2 _LXSS350_

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:20 PM

For a road/track torrie the 3 link with chassis mount watts link is the best package for a live rear end.

However for drag racing the parallel 4 link seems to be popular.

 

Lots on google about how to set-up/hotrod live axle suspension



#3 _Lazarus_

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:50 PM

Got any pics of a 3 trailing arm / Watts link setup please LXSS350 ?



#4 _LXSS350_

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 10:45 PM

There are lots of threads covering this but here was a couple from google

 

 

 

 

http://www.gmh-toran...s-for-my-hatch/

 

 

post-8224-0-72960300-1343789934.jpg

 

mufp_0702_27z+ford_mustang+3_link_rear_s

 

67-69_camaro_torquearm.jpg

 

 

 

post-8224-0-84788600-1343789343.jpg

 

post-8224-0-58467500-1343789784.jpg

 

 

post-8224-0-87122100-1343789435.jpg

 

http://www.gmh-toran...circut-toranas/

 

WaynesModifiedRearSuspension11web.jpg

 

WaynesModifiedRearSuspension2web.jpg



#5 _Lazarus_

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 10:56 PM

Wow thanks.

 

Wasn't really expecting anything so technical as most of those. The basic one is sort of what I had in mind.

 

I was thinking of the Crown diff housing (Panhard bar) I have at home which has identical lower mounts as Holdens with an upper mount to one side of the pumpkin with maybe a shortened Ford Watts link set-up hanging off the rails under the boot.



#6 _LXSS350_

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:00 PM

RollCentreHQII.jpg

Attached Files


Edited by LXSS350, 07 June 2014 - 11:14 PM.


#7 _447SBC_

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:16 PM

Not sure why you'd choose to have the obsolete parallel when the triangulated 4 link is so much more superior in its design and simplicity.

Edited by 447SBC, 07 June 2014 - 11:16 PM.


#8 N/A-PWR

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:21 PM

Great Information thank's



#9 _LXSS350_

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 12:10 AM

Not sure why you'd choose to have the obsolete parallel when the triangulated 4 link is so much more superior in its design and simplicity.

 

No the triangulated 4 link binds up badly. Also as per my walking measurements (crush tests), it does a very poor job of lateral holding the live rear end (especially if you have torque/horsepower). GMH only used it because cheap was a production priority. A chassis mounted watts link combined with a non binding three link (as per the orange racing hatch) works the best within the basics of a factory torana chassis.

 

With a lowered torrie front end the front roll centre is very low, while in the rear it is very very high. By having a chassis mount watts link on the rear you can adjust the rear roll centre lower to better match/balance your front. This is extremely noticeable and it changes the whole way the car feels and turns in (for the better) It allows you to carry much more speed and take advantage of good rubber and the added grip. It's all about math and balancing the physical limitations, but all these little secrets allow you to take control of weight transfer as you throw the car around the track.

 

post-8224-0-11232000-1386689074.jpg

 

Watts%20universal%20DS.JPG

 

 

mani10004.jpgmani10005.jpgmani10006.jpgmani10007.jpgmani10008.jpg


Edited by LXSS350, 08 June 2014 - 12:17 AM.


#10 madtoranajzedded

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 11:50 PM

Sorry. i dont think i have explained everything properly,and left i bit out,was suppose to put has anyone fitted a prefabricated tri y or

paralllel 4 link chassis clip,either something like ray mcdonalds or like frank zagari's,which involves the removal of the rear floor pan,

chassis rails etc,and the fitment of the chassis clip,tinwork and tubs.registered or in the process of having it passed.i dont know why

this has been moved under suspension,when its about fabrication. that road/race setup though is very interesting what you put

up LXSS350 .



#11 _LXSS350_

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:00 PM

Going Straight and skids not my forte or my interest. But google and google images are your best friend.

Talk to the drag shops that do what you want as they would be able to tell you the legalities and what you get . What you want is a whole different issue than going hard and fast around corners. I doubt that I could get a drag car licensed even as an ICV here in Perth.

 

Seach sites by using the words your looking for and then site location you want to search.

E.G.

wheel tubs

site:www.gmh-torana.com.au

 

http://www.gmh-toran...ng-cert-in-vic/

http://www.gmh-toran...tubbed-toranas/

http://www.gmh-toran...n-lh-lx-torana/

http://www.gmh-toran...mini-full-tubs/

http://www.gmh-toran...s-for-lx-hatch/

http://www.aussiev8....55-build-2.html

 

 

post-10336-0-85573900-1363416045.jpg

 

torrie004_zps96f1cf51.jpg

 

post-8224-0-68399100-1363690957.jpg

 

 

post-10336-0-34334300-1363416023.jpg

 

 

P5030018.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

18.jpgpost-10336-0-31137300-1303645451.jpg

 

torriewheels003_zpsf9d64f3f.jpg


Edited by LXSS350, 09 June 2014 - 03:02 PM.


#12 _NewsuxLX_

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:18 PM

HI guys and hi Maz, i know we've been discussing it already but i thort id throw my 2 bob in here on the forum and get your ball rolling a little. LX350SS seems to be a very knowledgeable person when it comes to suspension geometry. Maybe and its only a suggestion but you might be better of telling him exactly what you wana do with the car, Like what you told me. You want a car that will hook up in a straight line for drag racing but something that you can still drive around on the street reasonably comfy. Like what was said earlier parallel for goin straight and triangulated for the street. You could have either no worries but i think it comes down to space. Generally you see parallel set ups in things like utes, panelvans and wagons cos they have the space or you can hide the huge bump in your floor but in a sedan especially a 4 door you end up with the same problem you have now. With triangulated you can still have a back seat or a cover that looks like a seat anyway. Now this may be a good question for LX350SS. Take a parallel 4 link set up for example. if you shorten the length of the 4 bars does it become less effective? or would it bind up quicker or something? From what i understand the longer the bars the longer and smoother the arc or motion of the diff would be and the shorter the bars the sharper the diff motion. Is that correct? A lot of those 3 links are used in the states because they are a complete bolt in kit, reasonably cheap and easy to fit i believe. I cant see there being any problem with using a triangulated set up on the track, people drag on standard suspension set ups and even leaf springs!!! Haha good luck with it all. Hope LX350SS can shine a bit of light on some things

 

 Cheers jake



#13 madtoranajzedded

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 10:27 PM

cheers jake,was basically trying to have thread for all people to go to if they were going to do such mods to their vehicle regarding legal issues in the fitment of such a setup,it seems to me there are fabricators,engineers etc that will do the work and say it's all good to do the mods then to your horror when it comes to get it passed sh@t hits the fan and your stuck with the vehicle that can only be used for track or straight line.like me for instance,i didnt go through the formalities from the start in aquiring the mod forms,so rule one is fill them in with a little bit of other stuff to help it get passed (hopefully)ready for the mods.the mod form is the biggest hurdle and having a knowledgable engineer who is highly regarded in this field to get it over the line.just looking for proof that is has been done with the right engineer ,thats all,i think the longer the arms are the harder it is to get instant centre behind the line of force.not desirable for traction.the shorter the easier it is.


Edited by madtoranajzedded, 09 June 2014 - 10:32 PM.


#14 _LXSS350_

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 11:27 PM

Hire a Tassy engineer to make sure what you plan is legal. Sure it costs money but lets keep it real its a hell of a lot less than a car you can never legally drive on the road. From all the magazines people like McDonalds do heaps and heaps of Pro-street (big/littles drag racing stuff). I would "call them" or when in Melb go look at the McDonalds stuff in their workshop.

 

Then just ask them direct can you get your Torana registered with what you want.

 

They must know "they make money by selling the stuff".



#15 madtoranajzedded

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 11:54 PM

near been through the lot LXSS350.quite a few can do the mods but when its on the rego side they havnt got the knowledge and they ask the rta lol

and they come back and tell me as soon as you take the rails out its a fat no.i did have a lengthy dicussion with jake ,and his fabricator said its quite doable but wiil check with his engineer and see what he says,then take it from there,hope this is okay jake mentioning this as im just trying to track one down if its a no go with yours.thought at least someone has done it.will go icv if i have to cause atm im stuck with a car up on blocks and cant move forward.i doubt i will continue if i cant drive it on road.



#16 _LXSS350_

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 01:00 AM

madtoranajzedded I hear you and believe me the money I wasted is enough to make me seriously question the sanity of starting. The key is locating someone (licensing engineer) who has done it before and is not just making noise. I am doing an ICV and the issue is $$$$$. I mean it is a decent amount dollars depending on how mad you are about going fast. Like just to give you an idea for just the engineer/designers time the budget is at least $65-75k depending on CAD time and amount of times things are changed. Even then I still may not get licensed what I really want. I laugh at NCOP as its simply not worth my time as it allows you to do ZIP. Hell might as well have a typical 80's hotrod and put a plastic motor in.

Such video's (although now old) is what drives me as its the Pro-Touring style that is my interest. Having an old 60's or 70's car lapping faster, braking quicker, out running and out accelerating the latest newest muscle/exotic cars suits me far better than a car doing 8sec 1/4mile runs. Mark has sold Red Devil (red 69 in video) then he built Mayhem (a white 69) and now building the fastest ProTouring Camaro yet which he has called Hellfire (red 69).
 

Pro Touring legend Mark Stielow to compare old and new Camaros head to head. Mark Stielow is a GM engineer with a long history of building vintage, street-worthy Camaros with amazing handling prowess. His latest is the Red Devil, a '69 model powered by a 427ci, supercharged LS9 that tops 750 hp and 800 lb-ft. It runs a six-speed trans and complete suspension from Detroit Speed, and has won a number of shootouts with similarly built Pro Touring cars. But can his modified muscle car outrun the technology of the Magnetic Ride suspension on the new, 580hp, 2012 Camaro ZL1? We head to GingerMan Raceway in South Haven, Michigan to find out.




Edited by LXSS350, 10 June 2014 - 01:08 AM.


#17 madtoranajzedded

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:17 AM

my word LXSS350,that is an insane amount of money,i can only throw say 10gs a year at it,which i now believe icv is out of the question for me sadly.otherwise im just going to have to forget about it for 4 1/2 years then come back to it lol  :) but realisticly that amount of time would do me like a dinner.all i wanted was a car that i could show,jump in it whenever i wanted and take it down the  black stuff,i wish i could start again and thought it all through instead of just listening to the engineer say yep,you can do these mods,would of saved a bundle in process,hopefully it all works out in the coming months and all is not lost, tomorrow i will try jl racecars in melb and see what he says...wow thats a great little clip of one tuff 69 camaro put the newby up on blocks lol

 

thankyou for the advise on the subject buddy



#18 _LXSS350_

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:02 AM

Can you put the rails back standard and just mini-tub to the edge of the chassis rails? I have seen 295/50/15 on a 10" wheel in a mini-tub and they never cut into the rails (but inner wheelwell lip was gone) although shocks where removed from the original positioning. They ran a 100x50x5 RHS between the chassis rails at the top to mount the coilovers inboard but the key was they still didn't want it cut right up. Now this was all many years ago,  WA rules where very tough back then (the owner reckoned it was legal) because he made sure no cutting the original chassis railing, even in the engine bay the rails where untouched ( many did trim those).

 

Anyhow hope you can get it licensed and sorted.



#19 _NewsuxLX_

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 07:41 AM

Just on the ICV thing maz, you can almost build what ever tou want under ICV. The testing and engineering side of ICV is around $8000 ish maybe more but from then on its what ever you want to spend you know what i mean. LX350SS is building the ultimate race car by the sounds of it. Which sounds awsome by the way. I didnt realise you were building an icv. Anyway mines guna cost me in the same range as his but its by choice, not because i have to. Big engines big brakes big wheels, nice and straight and paint makes up the $$$$$ so dont be scared. They build motorbikes under icv aswell
Cheers jake

#20 madtoranajzedded

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:50 PM

yeah i could put the chassis rails back in LXSS350 but it would cost a considerable amount of money to get it back to how it was,eg floor ,rails and the inside rear beaver panel would have to be replaced,and sourced from another vehicle.the 9'' has been made to suit the clip and so therefore would have to change everything,so that leaves me with keep going with the setup what i have try to make something of it.will check into your progress on your vehicle.sounds pretty full on what you are doing

 

well that doesn't sound so bad Jake :) 8000 .i can handle that.just have to save a little bit more and go that way if all else fails.mine could be because i have to lol choice that is.keep in touch bud and let me know how you go with the engineer and we'll take it from there.

 

cheers Maz



#21 _LXSS350_

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 01:44 AM

Jake mine is very different from what you are doing. Its being completely computer designed, all loads and stress tests are done inside a CAD program which will workout my final chassis design and produce drawings to satisfy engineer and licensing requirements. Basically we do the CAD and we can put it into a program for the Hydro-bender or CNC and out come the parts. I had never done an unlimited street build under ICV and because of the $$ I don't want regrets so this is radically different (new to me) from my normal hands on build as you go method.

Like others of my era I either would choose a proven theme or the often used variation of the winging-it build methodology. I am doing it this way so with luck I can try to avoid some of the traps that I have fallen into when adapting components to fit the chassis. Here the basic drive components that I wanted sit within the outer skin of a hatchback shape and then I building a full chassis,suspension and body mountings to suit the outer hatch shape that sits on the Forgeline wheels.This is a completely electronic controlled car that is something that as a mechanical guy is really foreign to me and it is taking some understanding as its even new ground in the usa hotrod world.

yeah i could put the chassis rails back in LXSS350 but it would cost a considerable amount of money to get it back to how it was



Back in the 80's with many variations of 427 BBC's we would just cut anything to get everything to fit. I know with all the cuts at least 4 of those cars had new high floors grafted in and although done well they could never be legally licensed even though we just drove them around like that. We didn't care because they where just torana's (common) and we hated the factory spec as they where slow pos, I just wanted them to be ultra fast street cars and legalities where just not an issue because we kept well away from Mr Plods hotspots.

I hope you can workout a viable solution to licence your car, but the rules don't make it easy or even make sense in many cases. Because of the rule limitations and my desires I have been forced into doing the ICV. With luck, a bucket of money and lots of time I hope this will be the one car that keeps me satisfied with its performance. I have no interest in show cars or building one only in a cars performance. If you look at Marks 11th 1969 Camaro "Red Devil" in the video above he says it was over US$250k to build and that's in the USA where everything is cheap and far easier.
http://www.caranddri...-touring-review

His 13th new 69 Camaro is "Hellfire" which is close to US$350k and much faster and better again. Difference is that these are not show cars its a daily driving street and weekend racecar. Speed and building a better mousetrap can be very addictive.

Edited by LXSS350, 11 June 2014 - 01:48 AM.


#22 _NewsuxLX_

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:43 AM

Jesus! Thats abit over the top. He would wana hope he never crashes the dam thing. In saying all that maz is only looking at an engine swap and a 10-20 thousand dollar rear clip. Not cad drawn race cars. Just saying you dont have to spend 70 grand to be an icv. Thats all. Is yours going to be in an lx?

#23 Lima31

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 09:14 AM

Jake mine is very different from what you are doing. Its being completely computer designed, all loads and stress tests are done inside a CAD program which will workout my final chassis design and produce drawings to satisfy engineer and licensing requirements. Basically we do the CAD and we can put it into a program for the Hydro-bender or CNC and out come the parts. I had never done an unlimited street build under ICV and because of the $$ I don't want regrets so this is radically different (new to me) from my normal hands on build as you go method.

 

Why not license / sell your design at the end to maybe get some money back or even make more?

 

I'm after a 3 link and watts but can't see an acceptable off-the-shelf commercial product yet.



#24 _LXSS350_

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 04:08 PM

I have always had a big interest in car design, and a love for many forms of motor racing and speed. But being retired this is just a hobby and something to keep the old brain thinking when I am not fishing or eating. If this was my job and I was on a timeline then I would loose total drive and interest. Unlike work I can choose not do anything whenever I feel like.

Nothing in this car fits or is a torana except the very outer silhouette (skin). The engine sits where the consoles heater box would be in a standard hatch. All panels etc have totally different mounting systems, even the composite 1/4 panels have been redesigned to bolt on to the hidden cage. But that's why it has to be built as an ICV as its not a torana or even a modified torana, but its also not going to be a showcar as I am not into silly can't drive the wheels off it in case you scratch the thing.... its just a toy to drive and tinker with. Its either that or you can buy a Porsche or something exotic which imho is not as much fun even if it is ultimately easier.



#25 _THUG LJ_

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 03:50 AM

Hey guys, I am seriously considering putting a clip into my LJ sedan, I know Maz has a clip in his, but how many guys have done it?

do you recommend it? did you do it yourself or get a shop to do it? got photos of the process? any problem areas?

I want to run a 275/50 radial but If I have the option of a 315 I wouldn't complain.

I'd say I could get a 275 under it without a clip but id have to stretch the guards back a lot and It might look a little strange?

I will keep looking through the forum to see what I can find, but thought this would be a good place to start.  






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