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High hp/rpm n/a efi plenum


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#1 _rb3torana_

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 03:13 PM

Just wondering some thoughts on an efi manifold setup. Looking at running a 12 anything in a full weight street UC torana, trimatic and 9 inch. Engine will be a 9 port head ported, 12:1 compression, 260-270@50 solid etc using an lt8 microtech to run it.

 

Option 1 is to run some tapered rectangle runners to a 200ci plenum with a 1200cfm throttle body on top. Option 2 is to run tapered runners to 3x 65mm throttle bodys. ITB is just out of my budget lol. Let me know what your thoughts are and which way I should look at going. Cheers

 

Similar to Option 1

DSC00006_zpsc1156fd9.jpg

 

Similar to Option 2

smi1_zps7cfedc22.jpg



#2 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 04:06 PM

Option 1 would make more peak hp i recon?

Pipemax seems to think a tunnelram type plenum would be usefull.

Be carefull angling the inlets like that though, according to oj holden heads tend to prefer the runner to go up slightly towards the head.

#3 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:08 PM

Do you already have all the stuff that you listed? If not I'd definitely be looking for something that doesn't that suck as much speed from the baby six as a 9-inch...

 

Either manifold setup would get you where you want to be. Resist the temptation to make the head port area too big at the gasket face - it'll help to allow use of a more nicely shaped runner. The engine doesn't really care how the fuel gets in, and there are guys here making the sort of power you are after with 3 SU's on a 9 port. So the sensible thing to do would be to simply copy their manifold dimensions (or just buy one the same) and fit nozzles and TBs in place of the carbs.



#4 _Viper_

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:13 PM

I would have thought Both options Throttle Bodies are too large? Im assuming you are looking for around 300rwhp? One 70mm throttle body is enough to support that. But I guess if its only a drag car you could get away with the loss of throttle response

 

If its purely a drag car the LT8 will be ok, but if its also a street car id ditch the Microtech.

 

Design wise Individual throttle bodies with their own equal length runner are ideal, So the second one would be my pick, altho with smaller TB's



#5 _rb3torana_

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:44 PM

Yeah I already have the 9 inch and lt8 in the car behind a turbo rb30 with 650hp ( ran 10.55@138mph). Call me crazy for going back 350-400hp but I feel I need a new challenge. Obviously I'll have to change the diff gears and put some 4.11-4.3's in it as its got 3.25's now. Im mainly after an intake that'll be best suited from 5000-7500rpm as it will have a 5-5500rpm converter. I am leaning towards the single throttle body option just for the looks :spoton: .



#6 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:50 PM

Upgrading from a dirty thirty to a nice, clean, crisp, Holden six is probably the smartest thing you will do in your life. 



#7 warrenm

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 11:30 PM

Personally, I'd go for option 2, which is similar to an Armours manifold with SU's, but as already mentioned 3x65mm throttle bodies may be a little big. Should only need about 200rwhp to get into the 12's, although you have got a 9" lump under the back so you may need a couple more hp.


Edited by warrenm, 18 July 2014 - 11:33 PM.


#8 _rb3torana_

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:44 AM

How would the aussiespeed 4bbl manifold with a holley 650 ultra compare to option 1 or even a set of su's if anyones tested a comparison? Cheers



#9 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 08:39 AM

I would have thought Both options Throttle Bodies are too large? Im assuming you are looking for around 300rwhp? One 70mm throttle body is enough to support that. But I guess if its only a drag car you could get away with the loss of throttle response

 

Design wise Individual throttle bodies with their own equal length runner are ideal, So the second one would be my pick, altho with smaller TB's

 

Remember though that with injection the butterfly is only an air valve so the velocity across it doesn't really matter. If it's too big it won't hurt, it just means that you'll reach maximum flow at a smaller butterfly angle and that it'll be a bit touchy off-idle.

A well-designed plenum manifold will usually make a tad more power than simple individual stacks. The "well-designed" bit is critical though - like any resonant tuning aid they are just as capable of reducing power as they are of increasing it. I wouldn't rely on any of the formulas or software for the plenum volume, I'd make the plenum volume adjustable via spacers and find the best volume on the dyno.

 

Upgrading from a dirty thirty to a nice, clean, crisp, Holden six is probably the smartest thing you will do in your life. 

 

True. A man has to have some morals.

 

Personally, I'd go for option 2, which is similar to an Armours manifold with SU's, but as already mentioned 3x65mm throttle bodies may be a little big. Should only need about 200rwhp to get into the 12's, although you have got a 9" lump under the back so you may need a couple more hp.

 

This bloke is already doing what you want to do, use what he uses and you won't go wrong. The only thing I'd consider though is throwing out the injection and using Mikunis. If you have to use injection think about using a big injector/low pressure combo to limit atomisation and maximise airflow through the weak intake ports. You want to pour the fuel down its throat in a stream, not a mist. Consider the cost:benefit ratios of swapping the 9 inch for say a BW versus the cost of making the extra horsepower to drag that truck diff up the track.

 

How would the aussiespeed 4bbl manifold with a holley 650 ultra compare to option 1 or even a set of su's if anyones tested a comparison? Cheers

 

Don't even think about it. Not that the Aussiespeed is bad (it's probably the best single carb manifold) it's just that it's incredibly hard to make a single carb manifold work really well on a normal straight six, let alone the weirdness that is the 9 port engine.



#10 greens nice

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:00 AM

A BW has no place behind a high rpm n/a Holden IMO, your limited to a 4.11 gearset.
With a 26 in tyre you will be lugging the engine over the line at 5500 rpm to do 103 mph, still in the converter stall speed.

What do you think your UC will weigh on the line? 2800 lbs?

#11 _rb3torana_

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:25 AM

Im thinking around 2900ish hopefully, so pretty much 5 mph slower over the 1/4 than lc/lj. So should just sneak a 12.



#12 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:39 AM

A BW has no place behind a high rpm n/a Holden IMO, your limited to a 4.11 gearset.
 

 

G series Toyota?



#13 greens nice

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:58 AM

Is a good choice, yes.
Plentiful and wide range of ratio's.
But seeing as it has a 9 inch already, I wouldn't sweat it.

We lost a around tenth on the 1/4 swapping from a 4.77 geared b/w to a 4.88 all steel 9 inch.
The 4.77 gears were some odd South African pintara gear's, now obsolete and the b/w turned the axle tubes in the housing and started leaking.

#14 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 12:49 PM

Gesus christ guys, a 9" hub to hub is only about 10kg heavyer than a BW, guessing a couple of kilo's of that is in the bigger cast housing in the middle, at max you would have like 5kg more in the rotating assembly. 

 

Throw a full spool in it and some billet axles and it will probably be the same or lighter rotating assembly to a BW. 



#15 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 01:05 PM

It's not the weight, it's the friction. Look at the amount of offset of a 9" compared to most other diffs, and the amount of sliding friction that results. 9" pinions almost look like a worm.



#16 warrenm

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 01:34 PM

I agree with what your saying John.



#17 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 02:12 PM

Good point, i cant see the 900hp difference most people seem to bang on about in it though....Although i realize how hard that last 10hp is to get, and see why wasting it in the diff may be a bad idea. 

 

I'll keep my tractor diff for now :P



#18 _rb3torana_

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 05:13 PM

If all I'm going to lose is around a 1/10 at the track I wont be pissed unless it runs 13.05 lol. What would the fastest holden 6 n/a 4bbl car on pump be?

How many mph you lose with the 9" greens nice? Cheers 



#19 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 05:36 PM

From memory Runna 202 went high 12 with a 4bbl.



#20 _Viper_

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:12 PM

Remember though that with injection the butterfly is only an air valve so the velocity across it doesn't really matter. If it's too big it won't hurt, it just means that you'll reach maximum flow at a smaller butterfly angle and that it'll be a bit touchy off-idle.

 

But it still controls Velocity at WOT, if its too big then the air speed is too slow and the air stalls. If the intake runners are appropriately sized then yes it would be as you mention as they will limit max flow, but looking at the manifold in the second pic the Runners have been made to suit the large throttle bodies.

On a stock 1.6L Gemini I was playing with it made 60rwhp with the standard Tiny nikki carby, Fitted a injection system from a 2.6L engine which had a single 70mm throttle body and it made 63rwhp and it was reaching atmospheric pressure in the plenum well before 100% throttle opening and felt really doughy on the street (this manifold also had large runners to suit the 2.6L as well), Swapped the throttle body to one from a 2.0L Version which was actually a staged twin plate throttle and with no other mods gained 15rwhp and felt much more responsive.

 

If you have to use injection think about using a big injector/low pressure combo to limit atomisation and maximise airflow through the weak intake ports. You want to pour the fuel down its throat in a stream, not a mist

Im confused? High atomisation of fuel into the finest mist possible is always the goal, More of the fuel particles are then exposed to oxygen and will burn much faster and more completely This is one of the big benefits of EFI over carby, Its the same with any fire... its harder to get a solid log to light on fire but much easier with finely chopped wood into kindling, or tinder.

 

100% agree on the 9" Tho, Hilux is a good choice and plenty of ratios... But if the 9" is already in and budget is tight....



#21 greens nice

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:29 AM

If all I'm going to lose is around a 1/10 at the track I wont be pissed unless it runs 13.05 lol. What would the fastest holden 6 n/a 4bbl car on pump be?
How many mph you lose with the 9" greens nice? Cheers 


No real noticeable loss, probably because of the gear change, the .1 was on a hot day.
The 4.77 b/w gearset had to be replaced every 3 meetings.
It has ran its best time with the 9 inch

#22 WhaleOilBeefHooked

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 04:27 PM

And should continue to do so Long after the BW has spewed it's guts......



#23 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:33 PM

But it still controls Velocity at WOT, if its too big then the air speed is too slow and the air stalls. If the intake runners are appropriately sized then yes it would be as you mention as they will limit max flow, but looking at the manifold in the second pic the Runners have been made to suit the large throttle bodies.

On a stock 1.6L Gemini I was playing with it made 60rwhp with the standard Tiny nikki carby, Fitted a injection system from a 2.6L engine which had a single 70mm throttle body and it made 63rwhp and it was reaching atmospheric pressure in the plenum well before 100% throttle opening and felt really doughy on the street (this manifold also had large runners to suit the 2.6L as well), Swapped the throttle body to one from a 2.0L Version which was actually a staged twin plate throttle and with no other mods gained 15rwhp and felt much more responsive.

 

Im confused? High atomisation of fuel into the finest mist possible is always the goal, More of the fuel particles are then exposed to oxygen and will burn much faster and more completely This is one of the big benefits of EFI over carby, Its the same with any fire... its harder to get a solid log to light on fire but much easier with finely chopped wood into kindling, or tinder.

 

100% agree on the 9" Tho, Hilux is a good choice and plenty of ratios... But if the 9" is already in and budget is tight....

 

if its too big then the air speed is too slow and the air stalls

 

Huh?? If the TB is in between the entrance to the runner (which is sized for a suitable velocity) and the atmosphere (which has a velocity of zero, but somehow avoids stalling) then I don't see why the engine would care if the TB was a bit big. Unless of course it was so grossly oversized that it was impossible to build a reasonable transition. Bear in mind that a normally sized TB will look to the engine like just a bit more runner length, so an oversized TB may in effect shorten the runner length. But it won't stall the air or even reduce flow.

 

High atomisation of fuel into the finest mist possible is always the goal, More of the fuel particles are then exposed to oxygen and will burn much faster and more completely This is one of the big benefits of EFI over carby,

 

Oh please, not this crap again. I'll agree that FI does nearly everything better than a carb but it doesn't always come out on top for peak power. For years, EFI was unable to compete with carbs at competitions like the Engine Masters Challenge. It got so bad that injected engines were given rule breaks to encourage people to build injected engines. It's only been in the last few years that the injected crowd have been successful against carbureted entries, and even now EFI doesn't have any real power advantage over a carb (or mech inj.) at the strip.

 

Atomisation or even vaporisation is a good thing, but if the engine is at all breathing-limited (like a Holden 6) then from a VE and a pumping efficiency point of view then you want it to happen as late as possible, certainly not when it's still in the intake tract (and I'm talking petrol here, not methanol). For as long as I can remember - decades - people have been watching the fuel drool down the throats of Holleys and thinking that a finer spray must be better. Nope, nearly every time they tried a fancy booster that fogged the fuel it made a lot less top end. Same goes for Webers, there's nothing special about their delivery pattern, they just puke it in. For part throttle sure, the finer the better but for balls-out WOT power there's enough heat and turbulence in the cylinder to vaporise the fuel even if it's poured in, so there's no need to disturb the flow and displace a proportion of the air by vaporising or even just atomising it in the intake port. The sharp injection guys know how to do this now, the Hilborn and Holley guys have been doing it right for half a century or more, probably without realising it.



#24 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:43 PM

At the end of the day, if were talking about WOT, which going by the first post we are, Pro stock still runs carbs and most things faster still run Mech injection. 

 

Every seen the spray pattern of a top fueler?

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=xGTbQuhhluY

 

Now you have :D

 

Cheers. 



#25 _rb3torana_

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:09 PM

Pro stock is still the fastest without forced induction. I wonder if they were aloud to run injection would some still stick with a carb?






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