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Lobe Seperation Angle effect and analysis


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#1 LC-GTR-1969

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 05:37 PM

Gday everyone,

 

I stumbled upon this article and thought it was interesting- hence thought I should share...

http://www.cranecams...ion_article.pdf

 

I am wondering what others have experienced with various LSA figures, particularly running tight/narrow LSA like under 100lsa. Most cams I see advertised are running between 108-110lsa, however I have read that Brock would often run cams with 98lsa as his skill was able to keep the engine on the cam etc... (what I have read may be nonsense re brock using these cams.) What are the benefits of extremely tight LSA like 98-99?


Edited by LC-GTR-1969, 22 August 2014 - 05:39 PM.


#2 Oversteer

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 05:54 PM

98 would have been trying to extract everything out of a shit breathing combo.... absolute race race car only.

 

Interesting article, i suspect there is also more too it than that ...like matching compression, flow and volumes ....cam spec to get the right combo



#3 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 06:57 PM

Every engine combination has an ideal lsa for best power ,best torque or even best spread of torque and power . In simplest terms when you tighten the lsa you will increase power and torque in mid to top rev range and it will be more peaky, idle and low speed running will be rougher and the top end power will drop off earlier .

Generally poor breathing combos (all holden sixes except Duggan headded ) benefit from tighter lsa ,fast valve opening rates ,longer rods and anything that will unshroud the valves.



#4 LC-GTR-1969

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 07:01 PM

Every engine combination has an ideal lsa for best power ,best torque or even best spread of torque and power . In simplest terms when you tighten the lsa you will increase power and torque in mid to top rev range and it will be more peaky, idle and low speed running will be rougher and the top end power will drop off earlier .

Generally poor breathing combos (all holden sixes except Duggan headded ) benefit from tighter lsa ,fast valve opening rates ,longer rods and anything that will unshroud the valves.

 

Thats interesting...

 

I had not considered the effect of poor breathing and how tight LSA may effect it... Can you elaborate on this (from a technical perspective)?



#5 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:51 PM

I really dislike the American way of classifying cams; it leads people to think that something like the LSA is a fundamental factor when in fact it's only a derivative. In other words I don't think you should let yourself get distracted by LSA numbers; if you select appropriate figures for the four valve events the LSA will look after itself. Maybe just work out the LSA afterwards as a sanity check.

I think it's useful when studying things like this to look at the extremes - often it'll highlight what's really happening quite quickly. At one end of the scale we have the racing engines of several decades ago, with close LSAs, lots of overlap and gentle profiles. Cams like these can be bloody horrible but unfortunately it was the only way to be competitive with the poorer breathing, poorer burning and fragile valvetrains of engines of the time. The earlier intake opening helped breathing greatly and made up for all the shortcomings. Peak torque was up, but width of powerband was down. There are a few reasons for this: one is that the early intake closing limits the post-peak torque. Another is that the long overlap period makes the engine extremely vulnerable to the effects of reversion and out-of-phase pipes. Both of these are exaggerated by the late exhaust closing, and for any engine like this to work well it's absolutely essential that the exhaust system is well tuned. Despite all the downsides though it does help crutch a "poor" engine. A more modern approach though would be to use a wider LSA with a much more advanced intake CL - for some reason it was thought in the old days that the lobe centrelines needed to be not-too-far from evenly spaced either side of TDC, I have no idea why. Anyhow, a closer LSA will be peakier and a peaky engine often feels stronger even if it isn't, and this might be why some people like them. And if you build things like Holden sixes you’re stuck with them anyway just to compensate for the poor breathing.

At the other end of the scale we have the much better breathing modern two and four valve engines. They can make very good power without needing much if any overlap (and again, overlap is just a derivative, it doesn't do anything useful in itself). Very wide LSAs work quite well and they avoid all the negatives of the close angles. Of course, you can still increase the peaks slightly by closing up the LSA but the benefit isn't as great as what you get from the old wheezers, and with four-valvers in particular there's a greater chance of fresh charge heading straight out the exhaust. Besides, you can often reach the practical rpm limits of these engines without using a hell of a lot of cam anyway. So what we can deduce from these two extremes is that the benefits of a close LSA are greatest when the engine is fundamentally weak, and smaller or non-existent with a well-breathing modern design. And of course there are infinite shades in between.

Short version: ignore the LSA, just get the valve events right and let the LSA sort itself out. Old style wheezers run a close LSA to lift the torque peak, but there are downsides and it's important that the exhaust works. And for an old engine it may pay to consider a moderate LSA with a more aggressively advanced intake CL over an old school design.


Edited by oldjohnno, 22 August 2014 - 10:57 PM.


#6 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:57 PM

WAit waht so my totally random guessing at lobe profiles and then tellign the cam grinder to put them on the tightest LSA possible was a bad idea?



#7 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:30 AM

WAit waht so my totally random guessing at lobe profiles and then tellign the cam grinder to put them on the tightest LSA possible was a bad idea?

 

Not at all, it'll sound great, especially with that blower drive to the alternator...



#8 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:55 AM

...blah blah blah...

Short version: ignore the LSA, just get the valve events right and let the LSA sort itself out. Old style wheezers run a close LSA to lift the torque peak, but there are downsides and it's important that the exhaust works. And for an old engine it may pay to consider a moderate LSA with a more aggressively advanced intake CL over an old school design.

 

Even shorter version: just use 107 for a traditional 2 valver and fine tune by advancing/retarding the whole cam. It'll be very close to perfect in most cases.



#9 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 01:31 PM

Thats interesting...

 

I had not considered the effect of poor breathing and how tight LSA may effect it... Can you elaborate on this (from a technical perspective)?

 

Again in the simplest terms a tighter lsa will increase overlap (wnen the exhaust is still closing and the inlet has begun to open )which uses the inertia from the outgoing exhaust gasses to draw in the intake mixture to kick start the cylinder filling. Although this sounds like a messy and wasteful process it does work .



#10 N/A-PWR

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:42 PM

Great Information Thread,

 

I noticed the 107 LSA in my good breathing motor ( 208 ), and high compression,

 

 giving a Cam range between 3100rpm to 7500rpm.



I like the 107



#11 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 03:20 PM

Great Information Thread,

 

I noticed the 107 LSA in my good breathing motor ( 208 ), and high compression,

 

 giving a Cam range between 3100rpm to 7500rpm.

 


I like the 107

 

Yep 107 -108 lsa is about where u need to be with most profiles in a street/strip engine ,mine is 108 . I changed from 112 to 108 lsa with the same profile and gained a couple of tenths and 3mph  in my combo .



#12 warrenm

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 05:55 PM

106° :stirpot:



#13 N/A-PWR

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:06 PM

What does a 100° LSA cause,

 

as I have seen them advertised for V8 motors somewhere.

 

 

 

Is that an outright 9000rpm or so only cam?



#14 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:25 PM

106° :stirpot:

 

Thanks Warren, there u go 104-106 will be even peakier and suited to mostly strip/circuit cars . Hey Greens nice whats yours



#15 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:37 PM

What does a 100° LSA cause,

 

as I have seen them advertised for V8 motors somewhere.

 

 

 

Is that an outright 9000rpm or so only cam?

 

It would suit a balls out max effort race engine and would make power and torque in a very narrow rev range .Also narower lsa s produce less manifold vacuum to operate brake boosters .



#16 N/A-PWR

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:41 PM

Thank's again Mick,

 

I could imagine a Little Red 6 doing just that.  :RIP:

 

It would suit a balls out max effort race engine and would make power and torque in a very narrow rev range .Also narower lsa s produce less manifold vacuum to operate brake boosters .

 

another great point there about the Vacuum too.



#17 greens nice

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:54 PM

12 port engine was 107 lsa Mick.
I played with runner lengths on the dyno before the camshaft broke and it was making within 10hp for 1600rpm, 5500-7100. Could've gone tighter again

#18 TerrA LX

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:00 PM

What does a 100° LSA cause,

 

as I have seen them advertised for V8 motors somewhere.

 

 

 

Is that an outright 9000rpm or so only cam?

 

 

I knew a guy who knows a builder who used to get experimental cams ground to drag race, the idle is like a single cylinder two stroke under 100.


Edited by TerrA LX, 23 August 2014 - 07:03 PM.


#19 N/A-PWR

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:06 PM

Sounds Interesting TerrA,

 

the idle is like a single cylinder two stroke under 100.



#20 LC-GTR-1969

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:38 AM

It would suit a balls out max effort race engine and would make power and torque in a very narrow rev range .Also narower lsa s produce less manifold vacuum to operate brake boosters .

 

Has anyone here used/ run a 99LSA cam in a holden 6? Was looking at an old cam card for a 202 with 266/266 duration at 50thou, 99lsa the other day and wondering what it would be like...



#21 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:18 AM

Cams like that used to be very common, but the fact that we've moved on should say something. It'd have good torque when it's in the powerband but big holes in the curve everywhere else.

 

At the risk of being repetitive: I think it's a mistake to focus too much on the LSA. It's just a relative angle between the intake and exhaust lobes, and seeing as the engine isn't very sensitive to exhaust lobe placement it doesn't tell us much. What the engine does care very much about is how the intake lobe is positioned (or in other words the installed intake centreline). It's very much more important to get this where the engine wants it - the LSA can be a couple of degrees either way and it won't really matter much, so long as the intake centreline is where it works best.



#22 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 10:20 AM

Cams like that used to be very common, but the fact that we've moved on should say something. It'd have good torque when it's in the powerband but big holes in the curve everywhere else.

 

At the risk of being repetitive: I think it's a mistake to focus too much on the LSA. It's just a relative angle between the intake and exhaust lobes, and seeing as the engine isn't very sensitive to exhaust lobe placement it doesn't tell us much. What the engine does care very much about is how the intake lobe is positioned (or in other words the installed intake centreline). It's very much more important to get this where the engine wants it - the LSA can be a couple of degrees either way and it won't really matter much, so long as the intake centreline is where it works best.

 

I do agree a 99 lsa cam would be very peaky almost like a 2 stroke trail bike , have very little manifold vacuum and be terrible on the road it may work in a light weight drag car with a heavyish flywheel and a 5 or 6 speed close ratio dog box.

 

Im not sure about the LSA being not important ,I wont go into the theory but in my own car a change from 112 to 108 LSA with the same intake c/l and cam lobes improved 1/4 mile times a couple of tenths and 3 mph . Theres much more for us to learn about lsa changes as different lsa 's are best in different combinations and applications .Not here to argue with u Johno just stating facts and findings from my experience .



#23 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 11:55 AM

That's interesting Mick, a big improvement. But if you consider that say 104 to 108 deg is "in the ballpark" for this application then 112 is a fair way outside of that.  And remember too that LSA is in cam degrees, or 2 x crank degrees, so that with the same intake centreline the exhaust lobe could be 12 degrees or so retarded with the 112. So I'm not disagreeing at all with your results (I couldn't argue with a timeslip even if I wanted to) but as I said before, I think the LSA can be a couple of degrees either way and not matter too much.



#24 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 01:33 PM

That's interesting Mick, a big improvement. But if you consider that say 104 to 108 deg is "in the ballpark" for this application then 112 is a fair way outside of that.  And remember too that LSA is in cam degrees, or 2 x crank degrees, so that with the same intake centreline the exhaust lobe could be 12 degrees or so retarded with the 112. So I'm not disagreeing at all with your results (I couldn't argue with a timeslip even if I wanted to) but as I said before, I think the LSA can be a couple of degrees either way and not matter too much.

 

Yep i agree ,104-108 is in the ball park for best spread of power in a high performance application but with the same lobe on 112 deg is perfect for a street application as it had a fair idle and good vaccum for brakes excellent low and mid range torque and good power .it made 151hp at the wheels with a 2 barrel Holley and did 13.89 1/4 mile and also ran a 13.70 with a 4 barrel .Horses for courses  I reckon .






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