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Trying to tune the pinging out of the retarded - 202

Started by _Agent 34_ , Dec 28 2014 06:59 PM

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#1 _Agent 34_

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 06:59 PM

Ok so been a while on the green machine and the motor now has about 3000 mile.

the owner now has a few more kay's on his torana holden 6 brain now which is a good thing.

The new cam is a cracker in the car, but there is some pinging and I have been reading some literature on the subject and wanted to start to get to the bottom of the tune on the car.

went harry's at liverpool last night and on the way home at " sea level " 11pm the car was pinging 80 klms wot from there - which is not a good tune

there is a few things that I need to state up front and they are;

1) i have used nulon fuel additive octaine booster in the car

2) it's not been on the dyno since the cam change

3) after being defected i re routed the breather pipe into the carby N#3 and not the manifold as per previous

4) there 1 3/4 CD strombergs on a lynx manifold - will post photos later

5) 1 and 2 - were lean - brown and seemed the right colour - but this could have been the octaine boost - nulon

6) 3 and 4 were the right colour - ditto as per no 5 above

7) 5 and 6 were oily looking and crusty with dags - which didn't look good

So today I started trying to understand the pinging issue and why at sea level it was inclined to ping @ 11pm at botany

SO i started to work my way right from the start I;

1) I pulled all plugs out and cleaned then fully - the plug is a BP6F S - I have to check this plug range

2) pulled off the rocker cover and checked TDC and confirmed that the mark on the powerbond balancer was in the right spot - Yep

2) Did a quick check of the tappet clearances and found that there was some excessive gaps post last cam install - I re adjusted all the gaps

3) i took out the rocket breather pipe which I had been put into No #3 carby and then " blocked off the rocket cover as per original " - should have know better on this one - but kept the front " old style breather",

4) I re balanced all the carbies on idol with the arms off and with an air flow meter.

5) adjusted all the arms on the linkage to be operating all the throttle butterflies at the same time

6) it's a low comp head with 67 CC chambers - but extensive port work - I didn't do it - I also don't know the valve size

7) the cams got >488 lift @ 1.5 rockers - will see 6.5K plus no problems at all

The outcome of the tune up was;

Post tune up plug colour - My bloody apple phone is now full and it cannot take photos - so can post tomorrow - BUT 1 & 2 & 5 & 6 - need a bit more fuel - 2 and 3 perfect colour
I took if for a big flog and it blew the dip stick out and oil went everywhere after a few big - 6.5K plus revs off standing starts - this was the result of blocking off the breather from the carby
Still has a hesitation off idol and early throttle - but think that its running lean - as per the plugs colour - which i cannot post ATM
NO pinging at either Big REV ( standing start drop clutch 1-2-3 gear ) t OR 80MPH WOT

After the plug read i gave carby 1 and 3 a 1/4 turn on the main jet.

SO WTF happened today that didn't happen last night ?.

1) I didn't touch the timing

2) I think the car is running lean - which i can fix

3) I adjusted the valve timing

Question that i need some help on is';

1) if it's running lean will this cause pinging - it may because the chamber is hotter

2) does excessive tappet clearance cause pinging - solid

3) if i fatten up the fuel / air this should assist

4) what plugs are others running " heat range"

F#$#$#K i sound like MIKE 73 - PS where is Mike 73 - got his answers I suppose

any training wheels would be appreciated

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#2 _Muzzy_

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 07:33 PM

To answer the above
1 yes lean mixture will cause ping
2 no tappet won't have any impact on ping
3 rich AF will tend to have less ping
4. Colder plug

In saying that,
Timing is one of the key
A big cam will require more advance in the bottom RPM, eg static might be 18 BTDC however once the cam come on the advance rate needs to slowed down, maybe maxing out at 32/36 degrees
If a std distributor is getting is will need to be modified to prevent full advance

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#3 _Agent 34_

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 07:51 PM

thanks Brian,

I forgot one question;

AT WOT ( big rev off the line clutch drop start) does pinging or does not become audible or is lessened by motor noise ?

I have not heard or experienced the pinging at such an aggressive throttle WOT, does it still happen

It's got a ICE dizzy - but not graphed to the cam at present. Plenty of spark I suppose just need to ensure that it's happening at the right time.

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#4 _Muzzy_

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 08:12 PM

Pinging starts before you can hear it and increased with greater cylinder pressure, so therefore more pedal = more ping

Here's a tip, measure the diameter of the harmonic balancer and divide by 360 so every few mm will be x degrees, ( mark out with texta) then using a timing light check at idle, like I said big cam more timing in bottom end ( I run 14 static) and have mild cam then rev the engine to about 3500 and check agin this will tell you what total advance is, giving you some based info to start working with

Edited by Muzzy, 28 December 2014 - 08:15 PM.

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#5 rodomo

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 08:52 PM

Too much timing, get the dissy re-graphed would be my tip.

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#6 FordPrefect

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 09:06 PM

Is the cam timing correct (degrees and no accidentally installed advanced)
can you disconnect the vacuum advance (or is ice mechanical only)

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#7 _sunburst73-xu1_

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 09:38 PM

I'm with MR Dammitt!! regragh the dizzy to suit the new cam.

Edited by sunburst73-xu1, 28 December 2014 - 09:42 PM.

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#8 SA EH

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 10:02 PM

Hey Grant, mine pings like a biatch too, but ONLY with a lean mixture. And I know it's lean going by the air/fuel ratio gauge. My timing is a locked 34 degrees, and won't ping anywhere I drive, except if I load it going uphills.

Keep looking at the fuel delivery mate, the carbs might be spot on for low to mid range but may not be delivering enough fuel up top.

But yeah, it's felt a lot better since I locked the dizzy mate, then at least you know where your timing is.

Edited by SA EH, 28 December 2014 - 10:03 PM.

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#9 mick_in_oz

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 07:01 AM

Tappet clearance can effect if it wants to ping. A loose tappet will open the valve later, close it earlier, and with less lift, all characteristics of a smaller cam, that will produce more cylinder pressure at lower RPM, couple this with the increased static compression ratio and you have a situation for promoting detonation.

Everything else has been covered above, but if its a manual box, then locking out the timing might make it harder for you to solve the issue, if you need less timing at lower RPM.

The VAC advance will have an effect at part open throttle, disconnecting it may help, depending on how its being driven when it starts to ping, lots of throttle opening and the VAC advance is not adding any additional advance.

What fuel, what comp ratio, what cam duration figures (both advertised and at .050")???

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#10 76lxhatch

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 07:05 AM

The dizzy probably does need tweaking but I wouldn't be touching it until the fuel is right first - its a waste of time tuning the spark for the wrong conditions.

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#11 _Agent 34_

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 06:03 AM

Guys,

that's been really help full advice as a starting point to try and tune out or " get the tune better".

So I have read the NGK plug tuning guide and the plugs are "6" - so i think that it's middle of the range.

I have reviewed the " colour chart for plug colour" and both cylinders 1,2,5 and 6 are perfect. No 3,4 are a little on the rich side - so i gave a 1/4 turn on the up on the main for the middle carby.

comp should be close to 10.5.1.

colour of the last plugs - 5 & 6

Cam card attached.

From here I'm going to;

put in a new set of plugs and then take for a long run and then take the plugs out and have a look at the colour.

make any adjustments

check the timing and then check " total " @2500 RPM

Ice ignition is not open till the 5th jan so getting the re graph will be on the cards then.

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29.12.2014 120.JPG 54.29K 10 downloads

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#12 _ljxu1torana_

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 06:35 AM

those plugs are the most cleanest ones that i have seen for a long time.

even to hot of a plug can cause pinging.maybe try a 7.

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#13 _Muzzy_

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:15 AM

Check total advance at 3500 RPM not 2500
With that cam I would suggest a fair bit of advance in bottom end 14-16 static
And not much top end (30-32)
Based on 98 octane fuel

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#14 _Muzzy_

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:25 AM

Check total advance at 3500 RPM not 2500
With that cam I would suggest a fair bit of advance in bottom end 14-16 static
And not much top end (30-32)
Based on 98 octane fuel

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#15 TerrA LX

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 09:46 AM

Plugs do not look burnt up to me.

Compression test followed by timing.

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#16 _Agent 34_

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 12:54 PM

Plugs do not look burnt up to me.

Compression test followed by timing.

they were the 5 & 6 plugs after cleaning and disconnection of the PCV valve breather where i rang it into the non original CD after the slide - there is a 3/8 pipe that goes directly into the throat. They were crusty and black so was happy to get this colour out of them.- It was when i got defected for noise they picked up the breather as well. so i just ran it there to pass. Was amazed as the plug difference.

It was on my mind to do a compression test - but i do not have a tester. It would be interested to see what actual PSI it is now running.

I'm going to time this afternoon.- but have to mark the balancer further around.

Pinging starts before you can hear it and increased with greater cylinder pressure, so therefore more pedal = more ping

Here's a tip, measure the diameter of the harmonic balancer and divide by 360 so every few mm will be x degrees, ( mark out with texta) then using a timing light check at idle, like I said big cam more timing in bottom end ( I run 14 static) and have mild cam then rev the engine to about 3500 and check agin this will tell you what total advance is, giving you some based info to start working with

going to do this as well today and work out the marks.

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#17 _Muzzy_

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 01:26 PM

Compression will be low, cranking an engine with a large cam, won't give high figures, so I wouldn't pin much on this as long as they are even

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#18 Dave6179

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 01:52 PM

Buy a ColourTune for the mixtures! My plugs are much whiter than yours, but the mixtures are spot on from idle to around 5000R's. I've just replaced the Bosch HR9DCY+ for the colder HR5DC. No pinging, no fouling, smooth running, instant throttle response. CDI on the HEI (looks like a welder), 12 degrees at the crank, 34 all up (still playing with timing). And TW needles in the SUs. Also using a FuelStar... can run on 91 but prefer 95, 98 way too expensive for what it is.

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#19 _Agent 34_

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 05:33 PM

Pretty sure I;m running a 6J needle in a stromberg with a standard paper filter - different types of filters will affect A/F ratio - 6 j is for a higher compression / larger cam engine, 6E which are standard xu1 needle

In the attached graph i have attached - 6d- 6 e and you can see the difference in the taper.

OK so i worked out the following;

1) powerbond balancer is 152mm in diameter

2) Pie R squared is a multiplier of 3.1415

3) R = 76

4) 2x Pie R squared x R

5) = 477mm

6) divided by 360 degrees = 1.326mm = 1 degree

so on a radial powerbond balancer.

from TDC @ 16 deg = 16x 1.3 = 20.8mm around the outside diameter

@ 32 deg = 41.6mm round from TDC..

will put the timing light on the car tomorrow and check the marks to see what i have.

Dave - NZ - what is a " fuel star "

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Edited by Agent 34, 30 December 2014 - 05:36 PM.

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#20 _Muzzy_

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 06:19 PM

Good stuff to work out, even if you need to pay someone to fix the problem it's best to know the what the issues are, so you don't get ripped off

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#21 LC-GTR-1969

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 11:14 AM

Edit- posted before reading full thread lol...

Edited by LC-GTR-1969, 31 December 2014 - 11:16 AM.

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#22 Dave6179

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 01:34 PM

http://www.fuelstar.com/

http://fuelstarworks.com/

And of course... the haters who have never used one for themselves. http://fuelstarworks.com/

I used to regularly make a 1200km round trip when younger... yeh, she was smokin'!

The stove hot 179 gained 4mpg... and thats prior to buying the ColourTune, didn't need any additives that made it run like shit (which is what the ValveMaster was), easier to drive, and yes it had more power... not more than 5% I reckon, but definately more. Most people who bag it have tested it incorrectly, never had one or knew anyone who had one etc etc.

The 202 will run cleanly on 91 but looses a bit of grunt, still doesn't ping though.

I took the head off after roughly 7 years and there was no valve damage/recession at all, I still have that head too (needs a port job and a lap before refitting)

Edited by Dave6179, 31 December 2014 - 01:35 PM.

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#23 _Donno_

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 09:45 AM

I agree with Mick_in_oz re VAC advance. If the Distributor isnt getting enough vac then even
if the dist. advance curve is correct - the carby might not be sucking enough and creating the
vac required, that is if you have adjusted the dist. curve for your new cam already.

I'd make sure the Vac line doesnt have a hole or crack in it..

Donno

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#24 71Ranger

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 10:40 AM

Hi Grant,

Something that caught me out with my triples was 2 of the carbies Center Jet was not centred - this causes the air valve to bind. Its a quick check, stick your finger in the intake and lift the air valve and release you should hear an audible click when your release as it makes contact with the bridge. The other thing to check is an inlet manifold gasket air leak.

Cheers Brian

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#25 _Agent 34_

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 07:57 PM

Just a Little update on the above issue fact wise.

I found that some if not all clearances on the solids were excessive.

I adjusted these to be back within the cam card.

I cleaned all the plugs and took for a 160 mile run in middle of day.

I didn't touch the timing still.

I checked the timing and found that it's sitting around 24 degrees at idol which seems high.- i did not adjust.

I now have no pinging still.

cylinders 1, 2 and 5 , 6 are consistent colour wise 3 and 4 after quarter turn back on the middle carby ( main ) are heading in the right direction.- colour wise

discussion;

from the original check ( 1st ) the plugs on 5 and 6 were pretty well fouled based on the rocker " breather pipe" going into NO 3 carby.- It could have been that the dags on the plugs were causing detonation by getting hot or glowing and then igniting the fuel ?-this does now not happen.

OR

that the excessive or " not consistent " solid cam clearance was causing some of the combustion chambers to detonate

OR a combination of both

Its got me stumped but I'm betting it a combination of both of the above.

Its a ice ignition and dosent have vacuum advance.

an interesting outcome and one I'm not unhappy with !.

Edited by Agent 34, 08 January 2015 - 07:59 PM.