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Victoria Police Vehicle Crime Squad "Cloned Muscle Cars"


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#51 hainzy

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 11:02 AM

So does anyone know how all this works with cars that have a police chassis number? I assume that's all been checked and cleared with vicpol, and whatever the original chassis number is, would be in the clear?

 

I tried to check my original chassis number with vicroads once and they had no knowledge about it and didn't care. They only cared about the vicpol chassis and engine numbers, and told me they were clear. Do the police keep a record of the old chassis number when a car gets a police number?



#52 r2160

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 03:55 PM

The only problem I have with all of this is that the Police dont give a rats a%@se when you go to them to try to verify that a vehicle is legitimate and clear.

I would have thought that a buyer being proactive would be far preferable than just penalising the same person if they choose to buy a car that later turns out to be stolen.

Seems a lot like making quotas rather than fixing stolen car rackets.

 

glenn



#53 _Inj gtr202_

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 06:21 AM

The only problem I have with all of this is that the Police dont give a rats a%@se when you go to them to try to verify that a vehicle is legitimate and clear.

I would have thought that a buyer being proactive would be far preferable than just penalising the same person if they choose to buy a car that later turns out to be stolen.

Seems a lot like making quotas rather than fixing stolen car rackets.

 

glenn

anything to get a conviction mate.



#54 Bomber Watson

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:59 AM

I mentioned that a few pages ago.

Its the wy the police seem to work in general. They wont assist you if you are trying to avoid breaking a law. They will only procecute you if you do.

#55 _Victoria Police VCS_

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 12:47 PM

We'd like to thank all the forum members who have replied to us, its been a positive response. Just to clear up a couple of the questions or comments that have been posted.

 

We've taken note of the thread outlining all of the tags that have been sold on various websites and forums. We work with other Police agenices and where appropriate we will forward information to the correct units.

 

I understand that some of you may have in the past attempted to check a vehicle to see if its stolen. The Australian Government provides the PPSR Personal Properties Securities Register. It is a $4.00 fee to conduct a check. If a vehicle is listed as stolen on the national data base it should appear on the PPSR.

 

Some of you may not realise but our unit does not just investigate stolen vehicles and we take a proactive approach to the whole industry. In the past we have provided advise to other Police services both nationally and internationally, Insurance companies, the media and local car clubs. For example Australian Muscle Car Magazine had 2 articles about the potential issues faced by owners of Muscle cars, both instigated by our unit.

 

The question of VP or Police numbers has been raised. Those numbers are issued by the Roads Corporations and not by the Police. A vehicle may have identification numbers which have an error, have been damaged or tampered with and so that all confusion is taken away from those numbers a surrogate number is then issued in replacement and all corresponding numbers crossed referenced to the new surrogate number.

 

We look forward to any further assistance or information that forum members may want to provide.

Regards



#56 Bomber Watson

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 01:14 PM

Who exactly do we contact for a PPSR and what is the sual wait time if you dont mind me asking?

Would have been real nice if the local station had told me this.

Cheers.

#57 xu2308

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 01:19 PM

Bomber

The PPSR is online and u can do your check there, but I think if car is not rego the check is useless, but I guess as the Vic Police said on here if its Stolen it should be the PPSR List.


Edited by xu2308, 30 January 2015 - 01:21 PM.


#58 Davis

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 01:21 PM

http://www.ppsr.gov.au/Pages/ppsr.aspx

#59 Balfizar

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 01:28 PM

We'd like to thank all the forum members who have replied to us, its been a positive response. Just to clear up a couple of the questions or comments that have been posted.

 

We've taken note of the thread outlining all of the tags that have been sold on various websites and forums. We work with other Police agenices and where appropriate we will forward information to the correct units.

 

I understand that some of you may have in the past attempted to check a vehicle to see if its stolen. The Australian Government provides the PPSR Personal Properties Securities Register. It is a $4.00 fee to conduct a check. If a vehicle is listed as stolen on the national data base it should appear on the PPSR.

 

Some of you may not realise but our unit does not just investigate stolen vehicles and we take a proactive approach to the whole industry. In the past we have provided advise to other Police services both nationally and internationally, Insurance companies, the media and local car clubs. For example Australian Muscle Car Magazine had 2 articles about the potential issues faced by owners of Muscle cars, both instigated by our unit.

 

The question of VP or Police numbers has been raised. Those numbers are issued by the Roads Corporations and not by the Police. A vehicle may have identification numbers which have an error, have been damaged or tampered with and so that all confusion is taken away from those numbers a surrogate number is then issued in replacement and all corresponding numbers crossed referenced to the new surrogate number.

 

We look forward to any further assistance or information that forum members may want to provide.

Regards

Welcome aboard VP, its good to see a proactive approach.

I have often thought that some people will always exploit the vagaries of law and lack of knowledge of others (caveat emptor, let the buyer beware, The purchaser is responsible for checking )

this is were a simple and easy to use information source is paramount.  And I cannot understand why we are so far behind NZ in information that would reduce crime or deception in the automotive arena.

It surely would reduce crime if their system was introduced. Specifically odometer readings past and current.

??? will this happen in Australia, I hope so.

 

http://www.nzta.govt...requesting.html

 

Motochek website Application for registered person name and address (MR31) Request for motor vehicle details (MR32) Request registered person confirmation Check if a vehicle has been reported stolen Third parties

Some motor vehicle register information can be sourced through third parties who include the information with their vehicle information reports. The process and cost of requesting these reports is determined by the relevant third party.

 

Cheers

Balfizar



#60 _Victoria Police VCS_

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 01:53 PM

Hi All,

 

Just to clear up the PPSR, Its online. Always check by VIN or Chassis number. If your checking by chassis number click the spot where it states that the vehicle was manufactured before 1989.  If the car is stolen it should indicate that because the PPSR is linked nationally to all the Roads Corporations VIA the NEVDIS system.  You can also print off a copy of the check in case you need it.

 

Regards



#61 Bomber Watson

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 03:01 PM

Awesome. Thanks.

#62 Statler

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 07:55 PM

Is the forementioned 'copy' a guarantee of clear title?



#63 Bomber Watson

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:05 PM

Wise question Sensei.

 

Cheers. 



#64 _Skapinad_

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 08:19 PM

Quick Col, change your title to seem more professional ;). Cops will pick that shit ...

#65 sstorana

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 10:14 PM

Just a word of warning for all....

 

The VIN Checker on the Holdentorana.com site is not worth using..

If the VIN number has been tampered with ie. incorrect Body number, it won't pick up that there is a problem.
 

it actually needs to be removed, it is that bad.

 

cheers
Mick



#66 Tyre biter

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 06:34 AM

.... Just to clear up a couple of the questions or comments that have been posted.

 

...We look forward to any further assistance or information that forum members may want to provide.

 

One question which has appeared in this thread a fee times which would be useful to have answered by VCS is that of ownership and title.

 

Q: If a car is found to have been stolen back in the day, or it's identity cannot be established - who owns the car it?

 

I can see both sides of the coin;

  • The old owner had it stolen - notwithstanding whose hands it has gone through and what monies have changed hands for it - the owner never gave up their ownership.
  • The new owner has paid for the car and done so in good faith albeit it unwittingly.
  • To cloudy matters further, the car has likes changed hands in between a few times with each new owner assuming they had clear title.

Some threads here have suggested knowledge of cars being seized by police for good, and we assume they were subsequently returned to the original owners.

Other threads depict that regardless of the car's stolen provenance being established, the new owners were allowed to keep it.

 

Keen to hear what VCS has to say about the law nowadays re: ownership in these sort of circumstances?

 

Cheers, TB



#67 S pack

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 08:04 AM

One question which has appeared in this thread a fee times which would be useful to have answered by VCS is that of ownership and title.

 

Q: If a car is found to have been stolen back in the day, or it's identity cannot be established - who owns the car it?

 

I can see both sides of the coin;

  • The old owner had it stolen - notwithstanding whose hands it has gone through and what monies have changed hands for it - the owner never gave up their ownership.
  • The new owner has paid for the car and done so in good faith albeit it unwittingly.
  • To cloudy matters further, the car has likes changed hands in between a few times with each new owner assuming they had clear title.

Some threads here have suggested knowledge of cars being seized by police for good, and we assume they were subsequently returned to the original owners.

Other threads depict that regardless of the car's stolen provenance being established, the new owners were allowed to keep it.

 

Keen to hear what VCS has to say about the law nowadays re: ownership in these sort of circumstances?

 

Cheers, TB

If an insurance claim was paid out on the stolen vehicle then the insurance company will be the legal owner and they will want their property returned.



#68 axistr

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 08:13 AM

Thanks Victoria Police VCS,

 

Big Question for you which I am sure many car owners have come across.

 

I recently Restored a LH Torana and fitted a later E.F.I engine. The person I purchased it from removed it from a VR club sport and gave me a recept for it.

 

I am a authorised R.M.S examiner and tried to check if the engine number was all clear, I could not get any information on the engine through the R.M.S. or the inspectors information help line. I did the REVS check but no go unless you have a VIN or rego number to enter.

 

I went to the local police station and they gave me the same web site as you have mentioned,(PPSR) but have the same problem you can't just put in the engine number you need the rego or VIN number. I took the risk and put the engine in and presented it the engineer and then Blue slip station for inspection. Both parties couldn't check the engine number history either.

 

When I presented the paperwork for registration office at the RMS they typed the information details in and said the engine number was all good. Why the hell couldn't they have just typed the engine number in previously if I give them my details and identification. I have found it impossible to check just the engine number. Thank Christ the engine number was good as we have no chance of checking it until we go to register the vehicle and its a bit late then.    



#69 _LH SLR 3300_

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 02:26 PM

Very good point. The NEVDIS system can provide information on engine/chassis/VIN numbers I believe, but I think access is limited to persons working in a government Road Transport or registry office. An engine I was looking at fitting to one of my cars was flagged in the NSW RMS system, turned out it was last registered in a car that was recorded as stolen in September 1991. It was only thanks to the help I received from someone I know who works in a RMS office that I didn't proceed to buy & fit this engine to my car & therefore potentially lose money, my car or both. I did mention in a thread not so long ago that I believe NEVDIS should be accessible to the general public, albeit for a fee or whatever. It isn't uncommon for someone embarking on a classic car build up these days to start with a car/engine that has not been on the road for some time & therefore details to wit will not be recorded on any REVS or other such records. The engine I ended up using had close to $20,000 spent on it by the time I had it running in the car, that is a lot of money in most anyone's books to lose because I otherwise might not have been able to establish the provenance before spending such an amount, only to find out when attempting to register the car with afore mentioned engine.



#70 lxsstorana

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 06:36 PM

Just a word of warning for all....

 

The VIN Checker on the Holdentorana.com site is not worth using..
 

 

I agree Mick.

 

I normally stay out of these political type threads but enough is enough.

 

If you use the PPSR, there is no guarantee about the car you are buying,you don't know if it is stolen, and you do not get the history of the car.  Very disappointing and very misleading in my opinion.

 

When you spend your hard earned money on your daily driver or classic car, you want to have peace of mind that the car is not stolen, does not have money owing on it and is is fact the car that is advertised.

 

The PPSR is basically useless.  You pay $4.00 for it and get a piece of paper.  

 

Unfortunately it is buyer beware.  Sorry for being so blunt but the current system does not work..



#71 RallyRed

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 06:37 PM

must be some variance between locations?......When buying an LJ with a non orig motor, and no VIN tag, only ADR plate and stamped inner guard  number

..I took the engine # and inner guard number to the local Police LAC ....while I couldn't see what was on the screen, they typed in engine # and said ""OK"", then typed in the the stamped inner guard number and said '"OK""...



#72 lxsstorana

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 06:53 PM

Verbal approval does not cut it.  

 

You're in Victorai and there is a major investigatiion in relation to Victorian cars and people.

 

Do you have the name of the officer who accessed the records and did he/her commit that information to paper? I would say no and it was good that you took the time to go to your local Police Station and inquire about a car.

 

Not having a go at you, as the cop was probably trying to help you, but you can see how the system is flawed.



#73 RallyRed

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 07:01 PM

yeah agree with you...it does need a few finishing touches!...but I understand if you do the PPSR and pay/print it out and you have done it within 24hrs of the intended purchase time..then you are guaranteed no encumberences and you have free title of the car as well?

 

The car in question was not a high end collectable, so was happy they were OK verbally.

 

p.s. all of this means nothing anyway....as I think some of the cars in this Vic. story are actually clones i.e. they have the same identifiers...so if you PPSR''d one of them it would maybe show 100% ok??...but is really a copy of the real one?



#74 lxsstorana

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 07:05 PM

I will just add that we need an Australian wide system to check/verify cars for buyers, as cars are the second most expensive purchase you will make (other than buying a house).

 

Would by nice if "what's his name Ricky Muir, motoring party poliitician" helped out.

 

And unless the allegeded offender 'roll over' in the original thread/post, you will not get a result for a couple of years or more, so don't hold your breath, we need a system that works now.



#75 lxsstorana

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 07:14 PM

yeah agree with you...it does need a few finishing touches!...but I understand if you do the PPSR and pay/print it out and you have done it within 24hrs of the intended purchase time..then you are guaranteed no encumberences and you have free title of the car as well?

 

The car in question was not a high end collectable, so was happy they were OK verbally.

 

p.s. all of this means nothing anyway....as I think some of the cars in this Vic. story are actually clones i.e. they have the same identifiers...so if you PPSR''d one of them it would maybe show 100% ok??...but is really a copy of the real one?

 

We are on the same path and I would like to believe that the PPSR is a better system but it is flawed.

 

Can ;you prove the 24hrs purchase/ check time?  (very difficult IMHO)  

 

Can you prove the vehicles identification numbers?  And I'm talking toyota corolla and hyundai, not some collelctable car, and remember that repeating the numbers on the car you wish to purchase does not prove anything and this is where the system is flawed.  

 

The REVS system was much better and it had less short commings.  Just be careful buying a used car with the current system.






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