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EOI - h beam rods - to run nissan pistons


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#1 _Agent 34_

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 05:44 PM

guys,

 

Im on to H beam rods that will run a Nissan piston with bore size upto 72 thou over I'm pretty sure.  The piston is easily bought @ low cost and is a good piston design wise. so you can get + 30 + 40 + ( not sure in the 40 - 60 range ) but then 72 thou, which gives some old worn blocks some extra life.

 

 

The top pin is a full floating pin

 

the bottom journal is a " honda size" .

 

 

a set of 6 rods is around $800 or so.

 

the guy needs to order batches of 6 rods in each order.

 

 

At this stage im running this in my race car engine as the longer rod and higher pin height gives the old motor a small but important break on the side stroke.

 

we have three sets accounted for and putting it out there for anyone who is looking at getting a set of rods for there next build.

 

Can also get the crank done as well.

 

So, let me know.

 

can post specs when they turn up in my inbox.

 

just to be clear on this you can

 

1) off grind your crank and get a stroker affect OR 

2) standard grid your crank journal and maintain a : 'group nc specification"

 

 



#2 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 08:05 PM

WHat is the over all installed height at TDC in comparison with a usual 3.25" stroke 5.25" rod and 1.68" comp height piston combo assuming you grind the crank so it remains 3.25"?



#3 Uncle Chop Chop

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:39 PM

The bottom journal is a " honda size"

 

So that means what?



#4 TerrA LX

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 11:47 PM

Grinding, balancing the crank.



#5 N/A-PWR

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 12:00 AM

Always good good to know about better options.

 

 

 

Like button for you Grant.  :D



#6 LJ RB30

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 12:12 AM

yeah keen to know definite dimentions!

 

Looking at doin a long rod turbo motor so want to know the length, big end diameter & width & gudgen size of what your offering!

.

Cheers mate



#7 _Agent 34_

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 06:54 AM

DJ - am waiting on the full specs - but it's a nissan altera V6 piston- Well you can do either " off grind the crank" OR keep the standard centerline offset.

the honda journal size is a smaller big end to the standard holden offering and hence the crank needs to be machined to be smaller - a lot of NC guys are running the smaller " honda journal size" with no problems

 

 

I have a little way to go on the technical details, but a bloke in our club who has extensive racing experience and also is a aircraft engineer has had the rods X rayed and also is running the combo with the off grind crank and reccons the engine is the best combo he's built.

 

I over the next week i can sure up prices for the following;

 

  • pistons 
  • crank grinding 
  • balancing 
  • machining of counterweights - if needed 

as i need to do this for myself anyway.

 

DJ - by all accounts the measurments are good - i just don't have then.



#8 _Agent 34_

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 09:51 AM

H beam – comes with ARP bolt

Rod length – 5.7 inch

Top journal – pin dia - .866 inch

Bottom journal 1.889 inch

Width of rod – big end- .911

Tunnel  1.889 

 

still waiting on the piston specs - so can work out the rest.

 

i translated these off the guy today and am waiting on confirmation on the above via email.



#9 greens nice

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 12:28 PM

Sounds like a Mitsubishi Magna 6G engine piston?
What are they, cast or forged?
Flat top? Valve reliefs that aren't needed for a holden?
I think I looked at those Pistons a few years back and only chrome rings were available.

Nothing special about Honda rod journal, it's just .009 under std Holden.
I'm struggling to see how the combo can work with a 3.25 stroke AND a stroker, which would mean decking a ton from the block.
Rod journals at .030 or more under is asking for cracks on a factory crank.

Scat/eagle makes quite a few rods with damn near similar measurements.
Sr20, Honda b18/h22, Chev quad 4.

CP Pistons for a BA Ford 4l Pistons and scat 5.630 Honda rod works nice if you want a dish and small overbore. They're available in .007, .017 .027 over factory Holden

#10 _Agent 34_

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 07:05 PM

Kev,

 

i'm still a bit away from getting to the bottom of the matter and appreciate your help, as usual most people say stuff but rarely have any " hard detail or specs" .me included on this, three people are using this set up BUT i cannot get any hard specs on EXACTLY THE ORDER PARTS.

 

Im trying to find the piston now and have requested the spec off the rod dude.- this is what i think they are using although again i cannot find the part No or spec to match - http://www.ebay.com/...-/400887599544.

 

You could be right on the stroke - NC has limits and over the weekend will try and calculate this out. the issue is that if i run " regularity for ever then the rod length does not mean any thing, BUT if we step up then it's something I need to adhere to" .

 

I'm going to scale draw the center lines over the weekend as a working model in my brain UNLESS someone can draw and put up the " THE HOLDEN STANDARD MEASUREMENTS" .

 

thanks for the input.



#11 warrenm

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 12:25 AM

That ebay link shows up as being removed.



#12 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 07:00 AM

$800 is roughly double the price of the Scat/Eagle stuff, which is more than adequate given the engines rpm range.

 

The sums are easy: for each xx" additional rod length you need the same amount off the piston height.

 

For each xx" additional stroke length you need half that amount off the piston height.



#13 _Agent 34_

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 08:11 AM

thanks John and all, The problem i'm finding is that if you are trying to build an engine from scratch with no prior race engine building " combo or experience" eg FAILURES. I'm starting at the bottom of the list.

 

Ive got the head sorted out BUt trying to sort out the bottom end combination is starting to be difficult based on lack of experience and mis information from various sources.

 

Im not using the last guys who built the GTR engine so that resource is gone.

 

try the link again Waz- http://www.ebay.com....item5d56c351b8 



#14 LJ RB30

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 12:25 PM

Ok this is what i have so far.

 

Standard Holden 202

 

Rod 5.25"

Piston comp height 1.66" (have seen 1.68" on some suppliers sites)

Big end Journal diameter 1.899"

Big end width .910"

Gudgeon pin .8663"

Weight of Starfire rods approx 555g

 

So standard rod & piston length (center to crown) 6.91"

 

As im looking at a turbo set up im only looking at turbo pistons listed on suppliers sites & rods that are direct (or as close as) fit to obviously keep costs down.

 

Im also going to use a 2.8 block so im also only looking at pistons close to standard 202 bore size. Mine will be drag only ! Basically no rules just limited funds LOL

 

Have not picked up the motor yet so havent accurately measured the actual block height.

 

Anyway the following pistons may need the tops to be skimmed but wont know till i strip & measure the block im goin to use.

 

 

Eagle rods, Quad 4, 2.4lt,  5.71"

B/E journal diameter 1.899"

B/E width .915"

Gudgeon pin .8663"

 

CP Pistons, SR20 DET 4mm o/s (90mm) No SC73291,

1.260 comp height

.866" pin

 

CP Pistons, Mitsubishi 6G72T .30mm o/s (91.94mm) No SC7210

1.255 comp height

.866" pin

 

 

So Standard 202 rod & piston length 6.91"

Quad 4 rods + SR20DET pistons Length 6.97"

Quad 4 rods + 6G72T pistons length 6.965"

 

 

This is just info gathered from the net so use with caution LOL



#15 Uncle Chop Chop

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 04:02 PM

You should also account the piston to head clearance is at TDC. That may give you a bit more room to play with.



#16 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 05:08 PM

DJ - am waiting on the full specs - but it's a nissan altera V6 piston- Well you can do either " off grind the crank" OR keep the standard centerline offset.

the honda journal size is a smaller big end to the standard holden offering and hence the crank needs to be machined to be smaller - a lot of NC guys are running the smaller " honda journal size" with no problems

 

 

I have a little way to go on the technical details, but a bloke in our club who has extensive racing experience and also is a aircraft engineer has had the rods X rayed and also is running the combo with the off grind crank and reccons the engine is the best combo he's built.

 

I over the next week i can sure up prices for the following;

 

  • pistons 
  • crank grinding 
  • balancing 
  • machining of counterweights - if needed 

as i need to do this for myself anyway.

 

DJ - by all accounts the measurments are good - i just don't have then.

 

 

Hey Grant ,

                Its Mick here , Im damn  sure this is the combo I designed developed and tested about 6 years ago , and now some smart ass has got onto it and thinks it is his . Its a custom 5.7 rod  with a V6 nissan piston on top . You have to grind the crank to  1.771" and the stroke can vary from 3.25" to 3.375" , I can get the rods done again from the original manufacturer if there are enough orders .I can supply pistons ,rings and bearings and get your cranks done in either standard counterweight or knifedged . I can also supply cams and heads proven to work with this combo .



#17 _Agent 34_

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 06:15 PM

Good to hear from you Mick. 

 

I was getting a bit lost on this thread myself. 

 

Mick - after our conversation i went back to a bloke ( WARREN) who is running this combo and he said call BOB ( BOB may have a set) who BOB then said call Tony ( who may have a set ( dead set the conv was like this  ) ( mick you know BOB not sure if you know tony ) ANNNYWAY  after my  conversation with tony( who is an head reconditioned ) , he said that he needed 6 orders and he has 2 and hence this quest.of posting here.on GMH . tony was very limited on specs which is not ranking high on my confidence buying off him.

 

I only want one set, of rods to suit a NC engine  application.- which is difficult given a batch order for height of deck and bore Vs compression.- but we must try !

 


I had originally found out about this at our club meeting where the bloke spoke very highly of the torque increase. 

 

 

Trevor - thanks for the " standard info" ..

 

the Nissan piston is a pretty good bit of gear.



#18 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 06:41 PM

Good to hear from you Mick. 

 

I was getting a bit lost on this thread myself. 

 

Mick - after our conversation i went back to a bloke ( WARREN) who is running this combo and he said call BOB ( BOB may have a set) who BOB then said call Tony ( who may have a set ( dead set the conv was like this  ) ( mick you know BOB not sure if you know tony ) ANNNYWAY .....


I had originally found out about this at our club meeting where the bloke spoke very highly of the torque increase. 

 

 

Trevor - thanks for the " standard info" ..

 

the Nissan piston is a pretty good bit of gear.

 

Hey Grant ,

                 Yep I sold Warren Bosse his rods ,I do know Bob , not sure about Tony . If you can get me enough orders then i can do the rods from the original manufacturer for the same price and all the proven technical help u need , .But i can't do just one set for that price . As Warren says this is a proven combo and with the right cam/head gives a substancial torque increase in all combos., If you doubt any of this and are serious about it then come for a ride in my FJ road car. 



#19 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 08:38 PM

Rod journals at .030 or more under is asking for cracks on a factory crank.
 

 

Hey Kevin ,

               The 1.771" crankpin has been completley reliable in Nc ,3 litre speedway ,Targa tasmania ,Street use and drag racing ,the trick is to leave a reasonable fillet radius to keep strength in the crankpin. I even have seen a couple of 3.5" stroke 1.625" crankpin engines . I wasnt game enough to do this . Dont know what happened to these engines but i do know they made power.

Mick



 



#20 _Agent 34_

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 06:46 PM

Just on this crank radius Mick, I did speak at lenght to Warren ( smaller info  ) but BOB ( larger detailed info ) about this and what he said was exactly what you are saying about the radius. to give everyone else some background here, Bob is and old 60 something bloke  " who grinds cranks" . repairs cranks and that all he does.  I;m not saying that " he get's it wrong" but @ 60 the errors must be getting less - if you get what i mean. 

 

 

 

when i was pestering him (bob )  about this, he always came back to the " shoulder on the journal grid "  and it needs to be done is a "certain way" , it's not about snapping a crank, but spinning a bearing.

 

Mick - Warren started this whole thing when he said that the engine with this set up was the best he's had at our club meeting.- if it's your doing then well done.

 

G


Edited by Agent 34, 24 April 2015 - 06:48 PM.


#21 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 07:24 PM

Yep , it is a good setup with no block or cam modifications and i'll bet one of these short motors will really make a difference in torque to  Warren and Kevins car ,



#22 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 09:03 PM

Just on this crank radius Mick, I did speak at lenght to Warren ( smaller info  ) but BOB ( larger detailed info ) about this and what he said was exactly what you are saying about the radius. to give everyone else some background here, Bob is and old 60 something bloke  " who grinds cranks" . repairs cranks and that all he does.  I;m not saying that " he get's it wrong" but @ 60 the errors must be getting less - if you get what i mean. 

 

 

 

when i was pestering him (bob )  about this, he always came back to the " shoulder on the journal grid "  and it needs to be done is a "certain way" , it's not about snapping a crank, but spinning a bearing.

 

Mick - Warren started this whole thing when he said that the engine with this set up was the best he's had at our club meeting.- if it's your doing then well done.

 

G

 

 

Yep they are a good setup , This all started years ago with an idea for a long rod stroker from a bloke named Terry , using Leyland 1275 rods ,bushed falcon 250/200 rod pistons , Cortina pins , narrowed rods ,narrowed bearings .it took lots of machine work and lots of time to assemble .

I built the test engine ,fitted it to my fj and with a mild cam and 2barrel carb it made 151rwhp @ 5500  and ran 13.89 ,And so the idea was proven and then i set about designing a custom rod using the falcon piston then changing to floating pin Nissan piston and a Honda bearing only because it had the right dimensions . 

This setup is used successfully in speedway and Nc but is not widely known as most racers keep these things to themselves .



#23 warrenm

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 06:38 AM

What sort of increases are they getting over the std Holden set up with both std stroke & stroked version?



#24 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 05:47 PM

What sort of increases are they getting over the std Holden set up with both std stroke & stroked version?

 

I havnt got direct comparisons as no two engines are the same but i do know everyone says they get a few more hp ,maybe 10 and lots more torque where u need it.

. In Nth Qld limited induction speedway vk 202's are up against 250 falcons , You normally cant give away 50ci and beat  them,normally the holdens only just keep up. But one customer who built a long rod stroker with the correct cam lsa (yes it makes a difference)was now driving around the outside of Falcons ,he was stoked.


Edited by STRAIGHTLINEMICK, 28 April 2015 - 05:48 PM.


#25 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 06:42 PM

I'm thinking about getting another batch of these rods done if there is enough interest ,does anyone want to put their name on a set?






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