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how many teeth for starter motor


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#1 _benster208_

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 08:00 PM

I have a v8 with a trimatic behind it with a standard automatic flywheel in between. I put in a after market starter in which has 9 teeth but it has broken a tooth off and now I'm thinking that I had the wrong size starter in it. Any idea how many teeth it should have?



#2 _benster208_

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 10:13 AM

just to add to this , ever since I first turned the motor over with the starter it has been a real tinny noise. I just put it down to the flexplate but now I'm wondering if there is another problem there. The motor turned over fast enough and started easily enough but the tinny noise has always worried me. 



#3 _LS1 Taxi_

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 01:14 PM

Either wrong starter or needs to be shimmed as it sounds like it's not engaging properly. Aftermarket starters are common for this

#4 _benster208_

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 05:29 PM

I rang a auto eleco about this and he thinks the starter  might be going in too far as the VN block never came out with a trimatic. I'm taking it to him tomorrow to check it out. He also recommends I spend a bit more and buy a bosch starter as it can handle the torque better.



#5 Uncle Chop Chop

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 06:52 PM

How many teeth for starter motor? I wouldn't swap any of my teeth for a car part.



#6 ben23

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 10:15 PM

if the starter is turning over fine I wouldnt get a new one you will probably just need some shims between the starter and the block.



#7 _benster208_

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:30 PM

Ben, it broke a tooth off, so I need a new starter. When you check the teeth out you can see that the starter is going in way too far. the problem is that with the VN block you can't shim the starter out . it only shims up or down which is not what i need. 



#8 _hutch_

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:47 PM

Pretty sure the stater sits below the centre line of the crank shaft,by adding shims you will move the starter away from the ring gear,and. The starter should have a 9 tooth pinion

#9 ben23

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 08:35 PM

oh so it has excessive throwout, and yes my bad did read that it had a broken tooth but forgot.



#10 Bigfella237

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 08:51 PM

Is there a difference in the starter mounting position on the VN block compared to an earlier Trimatic block? I thought they were more or less the same casting?

 

If the VN ring gear is set further back than on the Trimatic flex plate, is the difference in the shape of the flex plate or is the crank snout longer? VN onward have a full circle rear main seal don't they?

 

If the only difference is the flex plate itself, then just use an early model starter motor.



#11 UCgazman

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 09:44 PM

I've got an early 253 starter on the 304 in the UC, bolted up identical and works fine. Maybe his starter just had a dodgy gear?



#12 _benster208_

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 04:48 PM

Garth, does your starter sound tinny when its turning over as mine does. I had  just put a standard OEX starter on it, but I will try the Bosch one next and try shimming it a little. I will ask about getting a early model starter as well.



#13 UCgazman

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 05:09 PM

Mine sounds normal,but the smaller reduction starters do have a different sound. Kinda more high pitched and whiney I reckon...



#14 _benster208_

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 03:59 PM

I have just put the starter back in to see where it sits and it is only 5-6 mm away from the ring gear. it is obviously way too close and the starter teeth are going in too far. I just can't see how shimming the starter will move it away from the ring gear I've looked at it and all it seems to do is take it out of the teeth. I have read a thread on here from LX76 ? who says that there was a different starter for trimatics with a different nose cone of approxiametly 7mm. but no one else had heard of this. I'm just a little stumped at the moment . A good Bosch starter is 350 dollars and I don't want to spend that type of money if its going to fail again. Any ideas please??



#15 Bigfella237

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 07:04 PM

~ there was a different starter for trimatics with a different nose cone of approxiametly 7mm. but no one else had heard of this. ~

 

Different from what?

 

I've done more V8 Trimatic to M20/M21 conversions than I could count and I've always used the same starter for both, I've also bought new starters or had them reco'd or exchanged and nobody has ever asked me if it was to suit auto or manual?

 

However it wouldn't surprise me if a VN starter is different to the earlier (Trimatic) one, most of the modern stuff is the gear-reduction type because they draw less current.

 

Which one do you have now?



#16 _benster208_

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 07:25 PM

I've got the gear reduction one. It is smaller than the old style which means it fits better. I am just making sure that when I buy another starter I will be getting the right one. .



#17 _LS1 Taxi_

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 09:41 PM

You can shim some starters between the body and and the mounting plate which moves the teeth backwards.

I tell you with certainty that the earlier starters mount up different to the later ones.

I have photos here showing the caparison. I'll see if I can find them. Hold tight.

#18 _LS1 Taxi_

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 09:46 PM

Can't find the pics.
What flex plate are you running? Standard Holden or aftermarket?

#19 UCgazman

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 10:22 PM

Where's the difference Daz? I've got a big ole bosch starter on a vp 5lt, stock flex plate & th700, haven't had any issues. I only fitted it because that's what I had kicking around and I've always been told the 304 & 308 blocks are essentially the same...



#20 _Gunmetal LH_

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 04:50 AM

Could the tinny noise be from too much backlash in the gears because you need to get them closer?

 

Might explain the broken tooth?



#21 _benster208_

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 07:37 AM

Daz,I have a aftermarket flexplate. The only thing I can guess at it that the VN block never had a trimatic behind it.  I will have to buy a new starter I think and hope that the broken tooth just came from a faulty starter.  Having another look at the setup from under the car and I wonder if the after market flexplate might be at fault. I don't have a holden flexplate to compare it with but it seems to be  close to the area where the starter bolts up .  I will remove the starter and try to take a photo later. Has any one purchased a JAYLEC starter and had any problems or can anyone recommend any brand of starter.



#22 rexy

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 12:26 AM

I too run the original Torana starter motor on my VT block and it works just fine.

#23 _hutch_

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 09:15 PM

Some of them aftermarket flex plates leave a lot to be desired,have seen ford ones that the stater won't even engage because the tooth profile is totally wrong,as far as the out of mesh clearance that sounds about right,is the face of the drive ground up,by that I mean the clutch housing

#24 mick_in_oz

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 07:31 AM

I'm aware of minor differences between starters, but never seen or heard of anyone having trouble interchanging between early and late styles and the later gear reduction starters always as a direct bolt in.

 

Two things that come to mind, firstly the aftermarket flexplate, my money is here, heard and seen way to many troubles with them to ever consider using one, out of round, wrong offset or position, not true, etc.

 

Secondly, what bolts are you using? Do they have the knurled shank? Could it simply be the wrong bolts not positioning the starter correctly?

 

The comment about the starter having too much engagement (front to rear) makes me go for the flexplate.

 

When you go to get another starter take a good steel ruler or vernier with you and get the parts guy to get both early and late starters off the shelf and try to measure any differences.



#25 _benster208_

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 07:39 PM

Mick, I think you are right about the flexplate. The research I have done seems to indicate that all the starters are inter changeable although the solinoid sits at right angles on earlier models and around the one o'clock on the VN model. With my extractors the VN starter definitely fits better. I think I will buy another starter and then later on buy the genuine flexplate. 






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