30 replies to this topic

[GMH-01X]

G'day Guys
A few questions for ya

* What is your thoughts on a VK 308 Black motor to go into my LX Hatchback to replace the VH 253 Blue motor ?

* Would the sump & oil pick up fit from the blue to the black motor

* will the alternator & brackets suit and line up

* is engine mounts location the same position

* how different would the wiring be if any

* would the water pump plumbing be the same

Thanks in advance for all your answers
Cheers Aaron

[UCgazman]

Blocks are essentially the same so everything will fit. Wiring will depend on what carb, dizzy etc is used but shouldn't be much difference.

Edited by UCgazman, 29 June 2015 - 09:45 PM.

[TerrA LX]

 

* What is your thoughts on a VK 308 Black motor to go into my LX Hatchback to replace the VH 253 Blue motor ?

 

Fantastic.

* will the alternator & brackets suit and line up?

 

253, 308, 4.2 and 5.0L red, blue, black and injected all use the same location bolts all over the head and block, the only difference being the gearbox, turbo or not.
Some 308's are turbo pattern and will not suit 253 transplants.

 

You will need a Torana alternator bracket.


* is engine mounts location the same position?
 

See above

* how different would the wiring be if any?

 

That will depend on what carby you run.

Some have electric choke, some have idle stop solnoid etc etc, all other wiring, ignition, charge system, dash lights/gauges are the same.

No stress here.

Note, temp sensor itsself will have to be swapped out.
VB/VK uses different ohm  to LH/LX AFAIK.

* would the water pump plumbing be the same?

Same same same again

 

This would have to be one of the most easiest transplants you will ever do.

 

Edited by TerrA LX, 30 June 2015 - 12:44 AM.

[yel327]

As above, if the blue 4.2 is as per original a black 304 or 308 will drop straight in other than the sump/pickup/dipstick combo, engine mount adapters, exhaust manifolds and alternator bracket. Use all those off the 4.2 that is in the Torana now. Only snags will be changed stuff like early water pump used on one of them, in which case you might have a spacer length issue behind the fan. Or an oil pump difference where the sensor moves slightly.

 

For the water pump, the longer one came in from memory prior to blue motor, so if both the blue and black engines are as per original they'll be the same. If you do use a short pump you just need the water pump pulley to suit.

[TerrA LX]

For the water pump, the longer one came in from memory prior to blue motor, so if both the blue and black engines are as per original they'll be the same. If you do use a short pump you just need the water pump pulley to suit.

 

 

I think you will find most engines with the clutch fan had larger hub?
Defiantly all black engines had them.

 

But yes, all accessories off the 253 will bolt straight on a 308 for Torana fitment bar some inlet manifolds, which have different, or no EGR ports.

[yel327]

No as far as i'm aware HQ-most HZ all were the same water pump. The longer pump came in at some stage during HZ I think.

[TerrA LX]

Pretty sure small bearing on standard fan and large bearing on clutch fan, any model.

[yel327]

Nope. At least earlier reds (if not all) are the same pump for V8, no different part numbers for A/C or non-A/C (which is what dictates the clutch fan or not). 6cyl may be different but not V8. The Commodore books don't even show evidence of different length pumps until VH - they list VB and VC as the same as earlier pumps.

[GMH-01X]

Thanks for the info guys - very helpful as usual, ill be inspecting the motor in a few days to see how complete it is & I will have a few other questions
on my plans for it.

Cheers Aaron

[GMH-01X]

Ok guys plans for this VK black motor is VN heads, cam, etc

 

* Is there limited inlet manifolds for black motors ( as someone mentioned on another thread )

 

*  Would the Harrop, Redline or Torquepower inlet manifolds ( to suit VN heads ) work on a black motor.

 

-- As  TerrA LX posted all blocks are the same ( is that including the inlet ? )

 

Your feedback would be appreciated as I may buy it tomorrow.

 

Cheers Aaron

[yel327]

Essentially all 308/304 blocks are the same apart from:

 

Valley head bolt bosses (EFI heads don't use these anyway).

Gearbox pattern.

Rear main seal.

Mid VR inwards are relieved at the bottom of the bores for the 350ci Holden engine usage.

 

If you use VN heads on any of these blocks you need to appropriate inlet manifold. Manifold suits the heads not the block - you can use any block from the very first HT block cast in 1968 through to the last in VSIII and the same manifold would be used that fits the heads.

[GMH-01X]

Yeah sweet yel37 -  thought I'd double check,

you just read things sometimes that aren't right & as you can tell I'm a little green.

 

Cheers Aaron

[GMH-01X]

I'm running a black 308 with vn heads and a dual plain torque power manifold. No issues at all. All the above is correct info for you.

Knowing you have done the same as what I'm looking at buying and building is good piece of mind,
With your motor Jason what internals mods have you done & what sort of pony's are you getting.

Aaron

[GMH-01X]

Yeah no worries mate

Az

[Bigfella237]

If you use VN heads on any of these blocks you need to appropriate inlet manifold. Manifold suits the heads not the block - you can use any block from the very first HT block cast in 1968 through to the last in VSIII and the same manifold would be used that fits the heads.

 

Better not forget the camshaft design goes with the heads too, it might run a little hairy if you change the valve configuration and don't tell the cam about it?

[TerrA LX]

Don't forget along with a new inlet and exhaust manifold you will need a NEW CAM as these are very different. All HT to VL carby engines use one type and VL to VT PFI use the other.
Failure to fit the correct VN type cam to suit the heads will end in tears.

[GMH-01X]

Today i went with a machanic mate to look at the black VK motor & it had slight score in a couple of the bores, the VN heads have surface rust around and on a couple of the valves, i guess you'll get that when the motor lives outside. So i passed on this one

- Just like many of the red, blue and black motors out there they all need about 4G + to get it where i want it.

SECOND OPTION

Another friend who works for my mate above mentioned that his friend has a VP Senator motor & box with 112k on the clock for a good price, ill find out if the motor is still available on Monday.

Has anyone delt with tuff billit manifolds. ?

 

http://www.ebay.com....1#ht_2025wt_995

 

Putting any of these aftermarket manifolds ( Harrop, Redline, Torquepower or Tuff Billit ) on a stock Senator 185kw motor cause me any issues ?

 What carby ( Holley ) & the size i should i run ?

 

Cheers Aaron

[Bigfella237]

In Red, Blue and Black V8 motor heads the valve configuration was [ IN - EX - IN - EX - EX - IN - EX - IN ] causing the infamous "hot spot" in the centre of the head.

 

In VL Group A & VN-onward V8 heads, the valve configuration was  [ IN - EX - IN - EX - IN - EX - IN - EX ]

 

So the cams need to be a completely different design to suit to modified valve configuration, mix 'em up and the back four cylinders will be trying to breath in through the exhaust and out through the inlet manifold!

[yel327]

Today i went with a machanic mate to look at the black VK motor & it had slight score in a couple of the bores, the VN heads have surface rust around and on a couple of the valves, i guess you'll get that when the motor lives outside. So i passed on this one

- Just like many of the red, blue and black motors out there they all need about 4G + to get it where i want it.

SECOND OPTION

Another friend who works for my mate above mentioned that his friend has a VP Senator motor & box with 112k on the clock for a good price, ill find out if the motor is still available on Monday.

Has anyone delt with tuff billit manifolds. ?

 

http://www.ebay.com....1#ht_2025wt_995

 

Putting any of these aftermarket manifolds ( Harrop, Redline, Torquepower or Tuff Billit ) on a stock Senator 185kw motor cause me any issues ?

 What carby ( Holley ) & the size i should i run ?

 

Cheers Aaron

 

There is no difference between a 165kW or a 185kW engine, just buy the best one you can. The power difference is in exhaust, cold air intake and tune (memcal).

 

It will work fine with a manifold, carb and dizzy but will lose heaps of power - far better off keeping the injection and they are a snack to make work. You'd need a different cam to get it all working and even then it will be less than 9:1 compression.

 

[TerrA LX]

Why?

Can't you just alter the dizzy firing order to match the cam type (efi or carb type)? So long as you know what Cam is installed there should be no tears...or am I missing something?

No sorry, you will still have exhaust valves opening when inlet valves should be and vice versa as Bigfella has

[GMH-01X]

There is no difference between a 165kW or a 185kW engine, just buy the best one you can. The power difference is in exhaust, cold air intake and tune (memcal).
 
It will work fine with a manifold, carb and dizzy but will lose heaps of power - far better off keeping the injection and they are a snack to make work. You'd need a different cam to get it all working and even then it will be less than 9:1 compression.

 

If I get this Senator motor It looks like & as you said yel327 I would be way better off dropping it in as is until a wad of cash fills my back pocket ( a few years ) then I'll be able to build a carb motor out of it properly.
Thank you all for all your input guys into this thread I have learnt a lot and the best thing is knowing the direction I should go and the best for me at the moment.

Cheers Aaron