258 replies to this topic

[StephenSLR]

According to Barrett-Jackson’s Steve Statham, this was the last muscle car: 1974 Pontiac Trans Am SD455

 

 

http://autoweek.com/...last-muscle-car

 

s

Edited by StephenSLR, 16 December 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[S pack]

[yel327]

So by this logic the only chevelle that qualifies as a muscle car is the 454 powered one?

 

I wouldn't say that. The COPO L72 427 was faster. I reckon the earlier ones aren't but the L79 and L78 versions and the COPO L72 427 and LS6 versions are. No different really to deciding which of ours are the "Aussie Muscle Cars" - throw out the smaller engine and less powerful stuff like 253 and standard 308 and include the bigger and more powerful engines.

 

http://www.musclecar...elle-chevrolet/

[yel327]

So going by what has been stated above, the GTO with the triple carbs is NOT a muscle car because it didn't have a 4barrel carb.

 

 

 

 

This is all getting very confusing.

 

That is optional induction, just like FI or twin 4BBL on a 327. I think they use the 4BBL as a minimum standard to rule out 2BBL engines rather than limit it to a single 4BBL. But good point!

[StephenSLR]

57 Corvette had fuel injection. and I would still think it ranks as a muscle car ....  

 

Corvette, Camaro, Mustang, Challenger are all either 2+2, GT's, pony cars or just sports cars. They usually aren't thrown into that muscle category and now with the new models being called muscle by some; the yanks are debating this as much as we are. lol.

 

The 57 being a small cutesy fibreglass convertible; I can't imagine many yanks calling that a muscle car.

 

s

[2600s]

No mention of the 1965 Chevrolet Nova SS, it was the first compact which could be ordered with either a 283 or 327 V8 Engine.

 

 

 

Edited by 2600s, 16 December 2015 - 04:00 PM.

[yel327]

Only saying that because it was noted earlier as V8, 4speed, twin exhaust and four barrel carb.
Only quoting not necessarily my opinion.
I would call my hatch and coupe a muscle car, but obviously reading here, not the case

 

That isn't the only criteria though, it was simply to show that auto examples aren't to some purists. The other factors are:

 

Intermediate sized car with an engine from the full size car line.

A 2 door with the big engine featuring 4BBL, 4spd, dual exhaust.

Mass produced, value priced, performance oriented, standout appearance.

Sometimes the extra criteria is thrown in that the engine is unique to the particular car in its vehicle size at the time.

 

The only Aussie car that satisfies all this is the HK GTS327.

 

But as detailed above we aren't Yankees, we can call our cars what we want! But they aren't Musclecars in the US tradition.

[wot179]

Then there is these....



1962 Bill Thomas Chevy II

327ci/360hp (fuel injected), 4spd, 3.08, 0-60 - 7.3, 1/4 mile - 14.80 @ 94mph

1962 Pontiac 421 (CL)

421ci, 4spd, 4.10, 1/4 mile - 13.87 @ 108.43mph

1962 Dodge Ramcharger (CL)

413ci, 3spd auto, 3.91, 1/4 mile - 13.44 @ 109.76mph

1963 Chevrolet Z11 (CL)

427ci, 4spd, 4.56, 1/4 mile - 13.18 @ 111.11mph

1963 Plymouth Super Stock (CL)

426ci, 3spd auto, 4.30, 1/4 mile - 13.11 @ 112.50mph

1963 Plymouth Super Stock (HR)

426CI, 3spd auto, 4.56, 1/4 mile - 12.69 @ 111.97mph (cheater slicks)

1964 Ford Thunderbolt (CL)

427ci, 4spd, 4.56, 1/4 mile - 12.91 @ 113.92mph


1967 Dana Camaro (CL)




427ci/425hp, 4spd, 3.55, 0-60 - 6.3, 1/4 mile - 14.2 @ 102mph

1967 Nickey Camaro (CC)

427ci/425hp, 4spd, 4.56, 0-60 - n/a, 1/4 mile - 11.90 @ 114mph (slicks)

1967 Nickey Camaro (PHR)

427ci/425hp, 4spd, 4.88, 0-60 - n/a, 1/4 mile - 11.30 @ 123mph (slicks)

1968 Nickey Camaro (PHR)

427ci/425hp, 4spd, 4.56, 0-60 - n/a, 1/4 mile - 11.43 @ 124mph (slicks)

1968 SS/E Mustang (CC)

428ci, 4spd, 11.62 @ 119.70

1969 AMC AMX SS/G (CC)

390ci, 4spd, 4.44, 1/4 mile - 11sec @ 122mph

1969 Corvette ZL-1 (MT)

427ci, 3spd auto, 4.88, 1/4 mile - 10.89 @ 130mph (slicks, headers)

1969 Camaro ZL-1(HC)

427ci, 4spd, 4.10, 1/4 mile - 13.16 @ 110.21mph

1969 Bill Thomas/Nickey Nova (PHR)

427ci/425hp. 3spd auto, 4.10, 0-60 - n/a, 1/4 mile - 12.05 @ 115.78mph


1969 Mr Norms 440ci Dodge Dart (CC)

440ci, 3spd auto, 3.55, 1/4 mile - 13.71 @ 105mph


1970 Mustang Boss 429 (MT)

429ci/375hp, 4spd, 4.56, 0-60 - 5.3, 1/4 mile - 12.3 @ 112mph


1970 Mercury Cougar Eliminator (CC)

Boss 429/375hp, 4spd, 3.91, 1/4 mile - 13.83 @ 102.10mph

[rexy]

That isn't the only criteria though, it was simply to show that auto examples aren't to some purists. The other factors are:
 
Intermediate sized car with an engine from the full size car line.
A 2 door with the big engine featuring 4BBL, 4spd, dual exhaust.
Mass produced, value priced, performance oriented, standout appearance.
Sometimes the extra criteria is thrown in that the engine is unique to the particular car in its vehicle size at the time.
 
The only Aussie car that satisfies all this is the HK GTS327.
 
But as detailed above we aren't Yankees, we can call our cars what we want! But they aren't Musclecars in the US tradition.

None of the engines fitted to our local stuff are big enough to qualify in my opinion. Not nearly enough "muscle".

[SA EH]

FAAAAAR OUT! WTF is this world coming to if torana's aren't muscle cars....

Muscle refers to big shoulders & big balls, like flare kits & v8's in my opinion. Sure enough I'm a Holden 6 nut but frOck me how can a big arse flared SLR 5000 not be the toughest looking car on the planet??

Definitely fishing for toadfish there wot....

[StephenSLR]

how can a big arse flared SLR 5000 not be the toughest looking car on the planet??

 

They definitely look tough in my opinion too and so what if they don't fit into a category coined in the USA. It's no threat to my masculinity if it's not muscle in the true sense of the definition where cars have donks too big for their own good.

 

Bring one of those US muscle cars down here for Bathurst and they'll get the arse chewed out of them; they'll probably crash or roll over on the first bend.

 

s

[yel327]

None of the engines fitted to our local stuff are big enough to qualify in my opinion. Not nearly enough "muscle".

 

No argument here. Just remember to put it all into context. The HK GTS327 was built originally as a hero car for GMH and any racing intentions were focussed on the Touring Car Championship. Just had to have the most economical driveline GMH could fit of the correct cubic capacity. Norm Beechey was free to run whatever spec 327 engine he chose. The decision to run it in Series Production came later, after the Monaro release only months before Bathurst 1968. The car did what it needed to do for GMH - finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th out of 7 starting GTS327's plus the disqualification of Des West who was later exonerated (but never re-instated as the winner). Totally dominated the race. Yes they could have had a more powerful engine, the 275hp L30 being the obvious choice (otherwise identical engine as what was in the HK but with Fuelie heads for 9.8:1 compression, HK was 9:1) but this would have been not only more expensive but no longer a common engine with the Pontiac and Chevy that GMH sold alongside it. Probably would have also meant a 12 bolt rear axle which for HK was a $600 option on a sub-$4000 car which would have made it way too expensive. The car had to be economical, GMH didn't plan to lose money. And above all they could not afford to be seen to be building a race car. The HK had what it had and did what it did, on GMH optional tyres for the car using all factory components. I still agree it pales into insignificance compared to US Muscle, but it is and always will be recognised as Australia's version of the original Pontiac GTO. Just like the original Pontiac GTO there are more powerful and more muscly looking cars built later but there will only ever be one first of its kind.
 

[yel327]

They definitely look tough in my opinion too and so what if they don't fit into a category coined in the USA. It's no threat to my masculinity if it's not muscle in the true sense of the definition where cars have donks too big for their own good.

 

Bring one of those US muscle cars down here for Bathurst and they'll get the arse chewed out of them; they'll probably crash or roll over on the first bend.

 

s

 

Hmm. Read about the ATCC at Bathurst in 1972. A certain orange ZL1....Or a very special Coca Cola Mustang. Maybe even the Bartlett Group C Camaro if it was allowed to run rear discs.

[StephenSLR]

Hmm. Read about the ATCC at Bathurst in 1972. A certain orange ZL1....Or a very special Coca Cola Mustang. Maybe even the Bartlett Group C Camaro if it was allowed to run rear discs.

 

They consider Camaros and Mustangs to be pony cars.

 

I was generally speaking; yes quite a few US muscle cars were used in racing but mostly around an oval, flat surfaced track.

 

s

Edited by StephenSLR, 16 December 2015 - 08:41 PM.

[yel327]

I know, just tongue in cheeking. It'd put that ZL1 of Bob Jane up against most of our Group C stuff in a head to head, would be a fantastic spectacle!

[StephenSLR]

It'd put that ZL1 of Bob Jane up against most of our Group C stuff in a head to head, would be a fantastic spectacle!

 

I do wish we had more US cars head to head against ours; would've been great to see how the mid year Corvettes and Shelby Mustangs stacked up at Bathurst in the 60's.

 

s