Hi guys,
That's for a great forum. This is my first post, but I've already done a lot of reading and there is some great info on here.
Some background on me first - I'm closing on 40, with two kids under 2. Despite that, im a racing tragic and have been racing various things since I was a kid. At the moment, I have a heavily modified Mazda MX5 running in the MX5 Cup and 4B Supersprints. It has been taken about as far as an aspirated under 2L MX5 can go, and running slicks, has done a 1:06.1 around Wakefield.
I'm getting tired of the MX5 though - mostly because the MX5 Cup is time based racing. So with no real rules, I'm turning up to race cars with big capacity engine swaps and/or boost, and achieving outright results is getting hard (and very expensive).
I'm thinking of a move into Group N historic racing, for a few reasons. Firstly. The cars don't become less valuable over time, which is attractive. Secondly, the rules are fairly static and have been consistent over some years, indicating that there is scope to develop a car within a rule set over time.
The LJ XU1 appeals to me for a few reasons. The cars seem to be affordable (ie. A decent car can be had in the $30K-$35K range), and they are competitive against the big capacity cars when well set up and driven. My old man also builds my engines, and has lots and lots of experience with the red six.
I have had a lot of my questions answered by is forum - brakes, etc - but I still have a few questions though...
Firstly, there is lots of info on getting power from the red six, but who are the gun engine builders? I have heard of mythical engines making 330-350hp at the crank - who is building these monsters? That's where we will be going for our head and cam...
Secondly, suspension. Are there off the shelf suspension setups that work with these cars, or are people compiling their own combinations of dampers and springs? Are there shops that are known to have the knowledge and ingredients to making the cars handle well?
Thirdly, I notice many of the cars for sale run Webers, and others are running triple SUs. I'd imagine the Webers would be better... But how much better?
Finally, there are a couple of NC cars for sale on my105 - but is there anywhere else I should be watching for these cars? I'm not constrained by geography - if we decide to buy a car as a going concern, I'd like to buy the best one I can find for the budget I have.
Thanks guys - I appreciate it!
Considering a move into an NC Torana
Started by
_zossy1_
, Mar 26 2016 08:39 AM
15 replies to this topic
#2
LC-GTR-1969
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Posted 26 March 2016 - 01:02 PM
very exciting, i say go for it...
we have a few members racing in NC from this forum, and they woudl be the best for advice... the guys at the pointy end are making really great power, but from my understanding there are also some guys in the field who have more modest engines, yet still maintain a degree of competitiveness.
RAMS at windsor and HSD eddie woods do great race spec 9 port heads which you will need. Webers or 2 inch, either will probably do... Roller cam is ideal. You will could bolt all the good bits together and make over 300hp for about 8 grand but it likely wont stay together lol... a fair bit of time will need to be spent getting the engine reliable and 300hp, thats were experience with the red 6 helps. Many run stud / main girdles, but if you do, my advice is to get the main caps line bored with the girdle as a torque plate to help ensure the crank tunnel is true with the girdle. Half grout fill the block and balance crank, flywheel and clutch together- this is not done by everyone but in my opinion is a good thing.
As said, many more on here will have much more info.
#3
RallyRed
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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:30 PM
just FYI zossy,
When i was looking around for a track type car, I found that a lot of the cars on that website were actually sold ""ages ago"".....and ""I told them to take that ad down as I sold it etc"".
Best to ring the owner in the first instance, to see if its still up for grabs before you lay awake pondering too hard.
And, all the best with the whole thing, solds like a great plan.....as you already figured out, there are some smart people on this site with heaps of info.
Regards
#4
_Lightyear_
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Posted 26 March 2016 - 06:51 PM
Seems to be a trend. Moving away from MX5's into Torana's. I am building a Vic V8 race car. Will also be able to do IPRA. Will look into NC rules. But my engine choice most likely will need to be changed.
You will most likely go slower, but should be more fun.
You will most likely go slower, but should be more fun.
#5
_zossy1_
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Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:59 PM
Hi old friend 
Another reason NC appeals is that I have a very good friend racing an NB Mini Cooper S. We would be racing together on occasion when HSRCA combines classes, but at least would be at meets together.
I can't bring myself to race a Mini though... no way...
Another reason NC appeals is that I have a very good friend racing an NB Mini Cooper S. We would be racing together on occasion when HSRCA combines classes, but at least would be at meets together.
I can't bring myself to race a Mini though... no way...
Seems to be a trend. Moving away from MX5's into Torana's. I am building a Vic V8 race car. Will also be able to do IPRA. Will look into NC rules. But my engine choice most likely will need to be changed.
You will most likely go slower, but should be more fun.
#6
_zossy1_
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Posted 26 March 2016 - 09:05 PM
very exciting, i say go for it...
we have a few members racing in NC from this forum, and they woudl be the best for advice... the guys at the pointy end are making really great power, but from my understanding there are also some guys in the field who have more modest engines, yet still maintain a degree of competitiveness.
RAMS at windsor and HSD eddie woods do great race spec 9 port heads which you will need. Webers or 2 inch, either will probably do... Roller cam is ideal. You will could bolt all the good bits together and make over 300hp for about 8 grand but it likely wont stay together lol... a fair bit of time will need to be spent getting the engine reliable and 300hp, thats were experience with the red 6 helps. Many run stud / main girdles, but if you do, my advice is to get the main caps line bored with the girdle as a torque plate to help ensure the crank tunnel is true with the girdle. Half grout fill the block and balance crank, flywheel and clutch together- this is not done by everyone but in my opinion is a good thing.
As said, many more on here will have much more info.
Thanks!
We have dealt with RAMS before with our race engines, so that's great.
#7
_datpsi_
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Posted 27 March 2016 - 09:42 AM
More nc cars ....
positives (in my opinion)
Cars look great and shouldn't lose value.
Racing in this category is awesome with full fields and majority of racers are good blokes with common goals. .keeping them straight.
Lots of reward when you get them through a big meeting doing what you wanted them to!!
Downsides are they are very high maintenance. Old technology pushing higher speeds and power. Unfortunately even the big budget guys sometimes have the same reliability issues.
Firstly if you can get a reliable 270 280 flywheel hp motor you will do ok.. would imagine most guys realistically in this bracket from blokes I've spoken to.
If you have the budget roller cam will be an advantage, but once again, half of the guys I've raced with ran roller cams and quicker.
Fortunately your on the right side of the country for for many different businesses to get the jobs done.
positives (in my opinion)
Cars look great and shouldn't lose value.
Racing in this category is awesome with full fields and majority of racers are good blokes with common goals. .keeping them straight.
Lots of reward when you get them through a big meeting doing what you wanted them to!!
Downsides are they are very high maintenance. Old technology pushing higher speeds and power. Unfortunately even the big budget guys sometimes have the same reliability issues.
Firstly if you can get a reliable 270 280 flywheel hp motor you will do ok.. would imagine most guys realistically in this bracket from blokes I've spoken to.
If you have the budget roller cam will be an advantage, but once again, half of the guys I've raced with ran roller cams and quicker.
Fortunately your on the right side of the country for for many different businesses to get the jobs done.
#8
LC-GTR-1969
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Posted 27 March 2016 - 01:21 PM
Firstly if you can get a reliable 270 280 flywheel hp motor you will do ok.. would imagine most guys realistically in this bracket from blokes I've spoken to.
Yeah, I think 280hp at the fly at 6000rpm engine would probably be quicker around a track than 300hp at the fly at 6800rpm engine due to better torque from corners etc.... Unless it was a really flowing track of course.
I watched the bathurst 73 race on shannons TV and Ian Tate said that the best HDT engine had 238hp but was quicker than the other teams due to better torque, other teams had more like 250hp he said.
Interesting, nonetheless.
#9
_Thomastorana_
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Posted 27 March 2016 - 06:07 PM
Ian Tate is still building some gun motors down in Melbourne too, I don't have any contact details. I use Mike Dyer in Brookvale who has plenty of experience in screwing together group nc red sixes. He has also raced in the category before so he may be of some knowledge with set up of suspension etc. we generally try to keep things pretty basic with our car which is IPRA spec. But basically a full steel bodied LJ, original suspension pick up points with a panhard bar and some stiff springs, group nc spec. Great racing and I'm hoping to save my dollars to get one soon also. Head onto the NSW historic touring car webpage they have classifieds my105 also and good luck when you start it's more fun beating XY Falcons, GTS Monaros and Mustangs than other MX5s.
#10
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#12
_2FLYSLR_
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Posted 12 March 2017 - 06:12 AM
I had an LC that held the lap record in group NC at Lakeside for 3 years until I just used it as a road registered vehicle. Ian Tate would build a great motor im sure but Gary Brown on the Gold Coast (street & strip performance Southport) who built my green 2 door LC, can build a very tough strong reliable 202 mate I can assure you. It ate Ferrari turbo porsches Nissan skyline on the street I had lots of fun unbelievable to drive.
#13
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Posted 12 March 2017 - 07:38 AM
I can't bring myself to race a Mini though... no way...
Sacrilege....... coming from a group nb mini runner ( racer would be a bit too much of a compliment!!!!)
Seriously though, love the LJs and love Group Nc in general, one of the most popular and well supported groups around... both in terms of field sizes and spectator support.
Get into the ears of group Nc people , they will know of current cars,,,, i would strongly advise getting a log booked ( and not last run in 1982 etc) , close to ready to go car, or at least body/ brakes, suspension and then you can do your own thing with engine, much cheaper in the long run, although you can still get some sad surprises..... that way you can have half a season or so to tune out the niggles and then put in a rebuild. ( note not the same as a hill climb special, which while they can be fun, would probably put you back in the same quandry as you are now,)
Run the triple webers, and don't get fooled into thinking you will convert it back to a gtr/ xu1 clone one day,,,, it is a 2 door work horse, not a future show machine,,, though again i imagine there are real gtr shells running in group N, just as there are a very few real Cooper S's running
Good luck in the hunt, your ball park figure is about right , they seem to come and go in waves, so might take a while.
Now i am off to trailer the race car for phillip island next week end, where last year on the outfield there were something like 14 lone ranger gtr/ xu1 all in a row and lots of others as well,,, gotta love the club outings, i commented that the outfield had a bigger showing of cars than one or two nationals i have dropped in on.
#14
_Agent 34_
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Posted 12 March 2017 - 07:46 AM
good luck Darryl at PI
and we expect a write up and some photos please of the all concurring, fire breathing mini upon your return.
G
another thing with racing a historic car is that there are no dickheads to put up with, which just adds to the enjoyment.
#15
_datpsi_
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Posted 12 March 2017 - 11:00 AM
Unfortunately Grant that is only majority of the time.. but 99% of my racing has been mirror to mirror with no contact, which is honestly the best fun you can have
#16
Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:11 PM
There are two Genuine XU1s competing in Vicoria. My LC (Linamint) and Scott Slater in an LJ (Iridescent Lime Green). The remainder are recreations.
You could always run an LC GTR with a 173 which would put the car in the under 3,000cc class. It can still run the Aussie 4 speed and all the other trickbits of the 202/186 but the car is considerably lighter.
My LC XU1 weighs in at 1043Kg about 20 kg lighter than most LJ and about 70 Kg lighter than the heaviest. LJ.
Edited by piquet, 12 March 2017 - 09:14 PM.
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