29 replies to this topic

[Shiney005]

See here.

http://www.gmh-toran...or-sale/page-3?

 

The cams are a bit of a mystery, as a few were supplied with Wade, while others had Crane or Isky. They probably changed over time as dictated by race teams.

Also, all L34s came with roller rockers. The standard ones came with a pressed steel rocker with a needle roller pivot, while the H.O. was supplied with Crane aluminium items.

[Torananut]

I thought the hot cam from the H.O. package was a Wade 140 grind. I have the specs somewhere but I will have to find them. Race teams would have been trying all sorts of specs of cams right from the start of the L34 racing life. Clive's Cams in Melbourne can make all sorts of camshafts to the original specs, and he makes them for a lot of the group C cars running now.

[Shiney005]

Grant, according to Norm Darwin's book Wade Cams only ground a dozen "140" cams for Holden. No one seems to remember precisely who was supplying them after that.  At least no one I know anyway. Memories fade a fair bit after 40 years.

Edited by Shiney005, 17 April 2016 - 11:22 PM.

[yel327]

HDT used a hydraulic cam and anti-bleed hydraulic lifters in the GroupIII HO pack, that engine is more than likely an L34 clone and appears to produce similar power. If you can find out who did the cam for HDT then they may have some idea what the solid cam in the L34 HO pack looked like - they may even still have the L34 cam's specs.

[Shiney005]

Niel Burns would be the bloke to speak to.

There was an auto VH H.O. that came with a Wade 242, but I think the manuals had a different one.

By the time the VK Group A came out the road cars got a Crane cam with 491 thou lift, but very ordinary duration to get past emission requirements. 

 

This is from another forum.

 

Graeme, do you know what the engine spec's are for the group 3's? All I know is that they came in two engine variants, the 246bph (standard) versions and apparent 315hp option which was only offered to a select few customers? I'm guessing this probably was not ARD and emissions compliant?

I think I would like Martin (Pickles) to answer this . . . there were a series one and two in the VK as Holden went from 308ci to 304ci . . . the High Output combos started to vary as the years went on and I wasn't totally privvy to some of the shenanigans like Martin was at the time so I don't want to quote data thats not 100% accurate . . . as I said at the start - this era was one of the defining times of the motor industry and it certainly shaped many lives . . . especially mine . . . . Lol. . 

 

I think the VH5 option below was the Wade 169.

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I am not sure who was getting cams from Wade, but there were a lot of Crane cams installed into Holdens either through the H.O. kit or via HDT. There seems to be a fairly large variable with cams in the H.O. kit, so i am guessing that if customers didn't want the bad mannered race package they could request something a bit more suited to a road car? 

Of course all of this is hearsay.

 

 

[Shiney005]

Good question. 

Clive Stenlake from Wade Cams says they only ground 12 cams for the first H.O. kits in the L34s. After that, there is no documented history from Holden apart from their part number from the Parts Catalog Supplement which is 9937699. (Which I am guessing is the Wade)

I also have an amendment bulletin effective Feb 1975 which includes parts for the H.O. package but the camshaft isn't mentioned. Only the camshaft sprocket.

The only other clue I have at the moment is that during development, REDCO tried half a dozen different cams and one of them had around 300 degrees duration. Also, Ian Tate found the first motor supplied to the HDT from Holden was down on horsepower compared to what they had already developed themselves, and replaced the cam and carby. (Webbers)

John Sheppard has mentioned running a milder cam (than HDT) in Peter Janson's L34 to get more torque and less top end horsepower.

[Shiney005]

Just to clarify, it's for his Torana so he's looking to replicate the LH SLR 5000 L34 H.O option engine, not the commodore ones.
 

They were using basically the same kit until the B cast heads came online. Some VH's had the oil cooler.  VK's were still using L34 pistons and the X rods were used until the A9L rod showed up.

[ozyozyozy]

I thought i heard the torana HO option was a solid lifter cam.
Dont think any of the HDT commodores had a solid lifter cam fitted.

[Shiney005]

Yeah you're right. I am getting a bit off topic. But it is another reason why I believe there was a large variation in the cams used over the years. Different race teams would have different ideas, and some people buying the kit for a road car wouldn't want a super angry solid grind.

One of cams that was popular at Bathurst in '78 and '79 was the Isky Z50. 254@050, 500 thou lift at valve and 108 LSA.  It would be a nightmare during peak hour!!! (Bigger teams would use different cams for different tracks, and at Bathurst they would even have a "qualifying" cam that would be even more aggressive.)

 

Just found some specs on the Wade 140 for the grey motor. 238@050 and 430 thou lift. Still a lumpy cam. Definitely not for every day use.

 

Someone must have got the catalogs and specs of all the Wade cams when they closed down.

Edited by Shiney005, 20 April 2016 - 08:11 AM.

[LS1LX]

H.O. was solid tappet 100%

[myss427]

My brother was running INDY Speed Shop in Morphet Street Adelaide in the day and supplied Holden with Sigerson Solid cams, Aungers who were the Crane agent were also supply Holden with cams and roller rockers for the L34 HO kits.

[yel327]

I thought i heard the torana HO option was a solid lifter cam.
Dont think any of the HDT commodores had a solid lifter cam fitted.

 

They are very similar power though hence why I suggested that specs for the HDT HO cam might be able to shed some light onto what the L34 HO cam might have looked like. Those figures Laurie put up are a mixture of DIN and SAE net, so misleading by whomever published it originally. The 315hp SAE net for the VH is pretty damn close to 340-350hp SAE gross which is what Unclefestas reported he got out of a rebuilt but dead stock L34 HO engine on an engine dyno.

 

Laurie, the V5H was a standard HJ-VL 308 cam. Same grind as a HK-HT 81837 cam.
 

Edited by yel327, 20 April 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[Shiney005]

Cheers Yel.

 

I got hold of Clive Stenlake today who was grinding the cams for Wade and who bought most of the gear from Wade when they shut shop. He says the 140 is not a cam you would use now as there are much better grinds available, but he could knock one up if you really wanted.

So, the mystery has been solved. Lobe lift, 296"  LSA of 108 (increased from 106 1/2 for all other 140 grinds), and a duration @ .050" of 239 degrees.

He still maintains that they only supplied about a dozen of these to Holden, so the question remains as to the rest of them. With Crane, Isky and Sig Erson all seemingly turning up in the kit, my best guess is that they were supplied to customer / mechanic / dealer request.

 

Anyway, give Clive Cams a ring if you are looking for someone with 45 years experience grinding cams for the 308.

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[toranamech]

Stock L34's had a hydraulic cam, same part number as the 253, it was to kill off the power increase from the better flowing heads, intake and exhaust manifold, plus higher compression, the supercar scare had got to them as well as the M21 and Banjo were marginal with any more power.

 

The L34 H.O. pack I had was fitted with an Iskedarian z50 solid lifter, but that was fiitted during one of it's rebuilds before I got it, it was apparently a direct copy of what had been in it. I never had any issue with that cam whatsoever, it was a bit lumpy when cold, but the power was strong from 4000 through to 6800 rpm.

 

I spoke to the original owner who fitted the H.O. kit and he was certain it was all Crane gear at the time, It still had the Crane Gold adjustable roller rockers when i got it. The H.O.kit, from what all of the L34 owners I have spoken too, was purchased and fitted AFTERWARDS, none were ever delivered as a H.O. pack due to previous issues mentioned. The Harrison oil cooler, could be put wherever you wanted, the 780 Holley was the IDENTICAL item as fitted to the phase 4, right down to part numbers. I have never seen the trumpet style air intake to be able to comment, but apparently they were sourced from a marine catalogue.

[Shiney005]

I spoke to the original owner who fitted the H.O. kit and he was certain it was all Crane gear at the time, It still had the Crane Gold adjustable roller rockers when i got it. 

All of the H.O. kits came with the Crane rockers. We know that a few came with the Wade cam (documented) but I know of three with Iskey (Iskenderian) cams and others definitely came with Crane.

[yel327]

Laurie

 

Came back to this topic as I had a brainwave (that turned out to be false) that GMH may have simply copied a GM performance grind for the HO cam, but alas not the case. The reason I thought they may have was the revised 308 cam as used from the start of HJ right through to the end is an exact copy of the GM Chevrolet general performance hydraulic cam, as used in all HK-HQ SBC style engines.

 

Here are the cam specs for the GM cams out of interest, and the L34 HO cam fits somewhere in between the performance grinds with a very different lobe separation too:

 

GM general performance hydraulic as used in most standard 1965-1972 SBC's up to L48 350/300, also used in HJ-VL 308/304 including V5H engines. GM part number 3896929:

0.39/0.41" lift (0.26/0.273 lobe), 319/320 advertised (0.001), 195/[email protected]", 112deg lobe separation.

 

GM performance hydraulic as used in L79 327 (327/325, 327/350) and also in the 350/350, part number 3863151:

0.447 lift (0.298 lobe), 342/342 advertised (0.001 lift), 222/[email protected]", 114deg lobe centre.

 

GM performance mechanical (Duntov 30-30) as used in Z28 engines (302/290 and 350/360-370hp (LT1)) plus the 1964 327/365-375hp:

0.485" lift (0.323 lobe), 346/346 advertised (0.016"), 254/[email protected]", 114deg lobe separation.

 

Given the part number of the new HJ 308 camshaft, it places it right back in 1969-70 era, right when Harry was working on the higher performance 308 for his lightweight HG GTS proposal (as he didn't want the XU1). This engine formed the basis of the L34 (except for the camshaft as the L34 used the standard HT-HQ 253/308 cam) but was also probably to be the revised 308 for the V8 XU1. I wouldn't mind betting they tried the HK and HT GTS327/350 cam profile in an engine back then and decided to use it in the 308 after HQ as that is where it ended up. 

Edited by yel327, 08 February 2017 - 08:37 AM.

[Shiney005]

Laurie

 

Came back to this topic as I had a brainwave (that turned out to be false) that GMH may have simply copied a GM performance grind for the HO cam, but alas not the case. 

 

GM performance mechanical (Duntov 30-30) as used in Z28 engines (302/290 and 350/360-370hp (LT1)) plus the 1964 327/365-375hp:

0.485" lift (0.323 lobe), 346/346 advertised (0.016"), 254/[email protected]", 114deg lobe separation.

 

I wouldn't mind betting they tried the HK and HT GTS327/350 cam profile in an engine back then and decided to use it in the 308 after HQ as that is where it ended up. 

This idea may have worked with the standard L31, but when it came to the Repco developed HO motor, the HDT, and current thinking at the time, the problem was the lobe separation angle. The differences in the intake manifold, heads and exhaust seemed to necessitate a narrower LSA than the Chev grinds to gain horsepower, even though it made the 308 quite "peaky". In 1983, Allan Grice's Bathurst qualifying cam had an LSA of only 106. It had no torque at all and didn't make horsepower until he was revving the tits off it.  Of course after another 40 years of development, everybody knows better. (By the way, I wasn't there at the time, so sue me if I'm wrong  )

Is the Duntov 30-30 the same as the GM "151" cam?

[yel327]

The "151" cam is the hydraulic performance cam I listed above, 151 comes from its part number 3863151.

 

The Duntov 30-30 cam is the factory solid lifter cam, which is the performance mechanical cam I listed above. It is the Z28 and the 1964 327/365-375hp cam. 

[Shiney005]

Others on here will know more than me, but I think from 1965 to 1972, cars running in Group C (Improved Production) had to run the cam they were sold with, but after the supercar scare the rules were changed so the manufactures didn't have to produce a "supercar". From '72 to '84 the lobe specs (and timing?) would have been free, but the placement and drive method would have to be the same as factory. In 1977 the rules were relaxed even more to allow the A9X to run the L34 motor.

[S pack]

Others on here will know more than me, but I think from 1965 to 1972, cars running in Group C (Improved Production) had to run the cam they were sold with, but after the supercar scare the rules were changed so the manufactures didn't have to produce a "supercar". From '72 to '84 the lobe specs (and timing?) would have been free, but the placement and drive method would have to be the same as factory. In 1977 the rules were relaxed even more to allow the A9X to run the L34 motor.

Laurie, AFAIK since Group C's (Improved Production) inception in 1965 the camshaft choice has always been free, as were shock absorbers, springs and sway bars, just to name a few.  It was Group E 'Series Production' that dictated the use of the factory fitted camshaft etc etc.