Jump to content


Land Speed Bike Project


  • Please log in to reply
44 replies to this topic

#1 _oldjohnno_

_oldjohnno_
  • Guests

Posted 11 June 2016 - 09:46 PM

I've posted pics of this bike here some time ago, but now it's getting some serious work. Early this year I decided to enter it in next years Speed Week at Lake Gairdner, in the MPS-F 350cc class. Since then I've put a hell of a lot of time into the bike, including building a dyno especially for this bike and project. Like all projects it's turned out to be a lot more involved and a lot more expensive than first expected, so I started a gofundme page to try to help with covering some costs. That hasn't amounted to much as yet but some local businesses, along with my employer, have pledged some great support and I can't tell you how thankful I am for that.

 

Anyhow, here are a couple of pics, there is a lot more info on the project on the gofundme page here https://www.gofundme.com/27tgav4s and a lengthy page on the bikes development here http://www.oldjohnno.id.au/bul.html

 

Num1.jpg

 

dyn.jpg



#2 N/A-PWR

N/A-PWR

    CABIN ENGINE CONTROLS GALORE

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,582 posts
  • Name:Dave I
  • Location:Wooroloo, 65km's East of Perth
  • Car:'1969' LC RAT TORANA
  • Joined: 08-December 12

Posted 11 June 2016 - 09:58 PM

Good Luck Oldjohnno,

 

 I know Paul Noone in the 1000mph land speed Bullet project, and have seen a lot what is involved in his work.

 

 

Looking forward to seeing you get some trophy's mate. :)



You are the master of fine tuning.



Like button for you



#3 RallyRed

RallyRed

    Oh My, Don't you post alot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,805 posts
  • Name:Col
  • Location:NSW
  • Car:LC GTR etc
  • Joined: 02-October 11

Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:49 AM

nice work OJ...love that dyno with the handbrake/disc....what a good, but simple idea!

 

Good luck mate...hope it goes well.  Make sure you put up more as it progresses



#4 _oldjohnno_

_oldjohnno_
  • Guests

Posted 12 June 2016 - 09:09 AM

Thanks Dave, Col.



#5 _Skapinad_

_Skapinad_
  • Guests

Posted 12 June 2016 - 10:53 AM

Fantastic write up as always John.

bet those last few paragraphs have caused a few internet arguments ;)

Keep us updated ;)

#6 _oldjohnno_

_oldjohnno_
  • Guests

Posted 12 June 2016 - 11:05 AM



bet those last few paragraphs have caused a few internet arguments ;)

Keep us updated ;)

 

Strangely enough they haven't - all the feedback I've had has been along the lines of "Fuk yes, at last someone said it out loud"

 

Don't get me wrong, I love MX, MX bikes and MX riders. But if the MX tuners had to drag race for a living they'd die of starvation in a fortnight.



#7 warrenm

warrenm

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,102 posts
  • Location:Central West NSW
  • Car:1972 LJ Torana
  • Joined: 08-November 05
Garage View Garage

Posted 12 June 2016 - 05:35 PM

Looking good. I'm interested in your "dyno", do you have any more details? What are you using to read the torque? How do the brake pads stand up with the constant heat?



#8 _oldjohnno_

_oldjohnno_
  • Guests

Posted 12 June 2016 - 06:55 PM

The dyno is extremely simple, primitive even. But it works very well, is accurate and repeatable. The only downside is that it doesn't give a direct hp reading, you have to work it out from the rpms and torque reading. I have a spreadsheet set up so that all I have to do is punch those two numbers in and it spits out the hp figure, corrected for the current weather conditions (entered at the start of the session).

 

The absorbing element is a bloody big ventilated disc brake, 380mm and 15kg, so it's bigger than a Chev flywheel and twice as heavy. It's mounted on a hub that spins on needle bearings around the spindle. The caliper is free to rotate around the spindle too, and is only restrained by a torque arm exactly 12" long that is connected via a cable to the torque gauge. This gauge is just a dial type spring scale, just like those of the older mechanical dynos. If you wanted to get fancy a load cell would work just as well.

 

I used this style instead of an inertia style because I wanted to be able to run at full load for an extended period, something an inertia dyno can't do. I also didn't want to deal with the inconsistencies that go with a tyre on a roller. The absorbed energy is converted to heat, just like any other dyno. With short runs - say 10 seconds or so - I don't even have to run a blower on the brake, I just let it spin a bit in top gear and the natural circulation of air through the disc is enough. For longer runs and higher power levels I direct an air blower into the "inside" of the disc, and this allows it to run loaded indefinitely. But for normal tuning work, by the time I've changed the jets or timing or whatever it's good to go again. It's never been hot enough to even turn bluish yet, though it's only had to deal with around 60hp. The only thing I might do is put a shroud around the brake so I can direct the hot air outside where it won't affect the engine output.

 

But like I said, it works very well, cost under 2k and took a couple of half-arsed weekends to build. I'm very happy with it. I'm half tempted to build another bigger version for sixes...

 

dyno2.jpg



#9 _Bomber Watson_

_Bomber Watson_
  • Guests

Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:24 PM

Good read.

 

Will be keeping an eye on it.



#10 warrenm

warrenm

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,102 posts
  • Location:Central West NSW
  • Car:1972 LJ Torana
  • Joined: 08-November 05
Garage View Garage

Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:30 PM

You hit the nail on the head. I would like to build one to suit a Holden 6, 300/350 hp. I've looked at using a disc arrangement as you have, but wasn't sure how it would stand up to the task. I have looked at a setup using a torque convertor from a diesel bus & using water as the brake, but I like your approach with the disk & caliper. Did you use a billet disk or cast disk? The reason I ask is, maybe  a shroud over the disk in case it gets hot enough to "shatter" might be a little uncomfortable around the "family jewels" area, if you know what I mean. 



#11 _oldjohnno_

_oldjohnno_
  • Guests

Posted 12 June 2016 - 10:06 PM

You hit the nail on the head. I would like to build one to suit a Holden 6, 300/350 hp. I've looked at using a disc arrangement as you have, but wasn't sure how it would stand up to the task. I have looked at a setup using a torque convertor from a diesel bus & using water as the brake, but I like your approach with the disk & caliper. Did you use a billet disk or cast disk? The reason I ask is, maybe  a shroud over the disk in case it gets hot enough to "shatter" might be a little uncomfortable around the "family jewels" area, if you know what I mean. 

 

It's a cast disc, but it neither gets hot enough or spins fast enough to shatter. Because of the combined primary drive and final drive reductions, the disk doesn't spin much faster that 2000rpm with the bike. If you were going to do something similar with say 3 or 4 discs to test Holden sixes you'd definitely need to run something like a 4 or 5:1 gear reduction to avoid exploding the discs.

 

I've been meaning to rub some stripes on the disc with heat crayons but so far the disc hasn't got hot enough to get even slightly blue. I'll keep an eye on it as the power goes up, but with the disc being out in the open you can really pump a lot of air through it and I just don't see overheating being a big issue. I reckon I could double the existing power input and it would still be fine with the blower running. It sure warms up the shed though. The sheer mass of the disc - over 15kg - means you have a fair "cushion" of time to work with before the disc even reaches 100C or so.

 

Something I'd been considering - and it may be a stupid idea - was to use GM blower(s) as the load for a 202 dyno. The load would be easy to modulate by throttling the exhaust and all the heat would be carried away by the air. Mounting the blower on a trunnion would allow torque measurement. From memory something like a 14:71 would be more than adequate. Managing the noise would take a little effort but I think a couple of big Donaldson truck mufflers would do it. I remember seeing some usable 14:71s for a reasonable price on racingjunk but got nervous about trusting a racer to ship the thing to Aus after taking my money...



#12 _oldjohnno_

_oldjohnno_
  • Guests

Posted 12 June 2016 - 10:15 PM

Something else I might add on dynos - for some reason hardly anyone uses a true brake anymore, it's either water, eddy current or inertia. Brakes seem to be considered outdated technology. But they're probably the easiest for fine control of the load. The main advantage of the water brake is that all the heat can be piped away easily. 



#13 Dodgey

Dodgey

    Forum Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 437 posts
  • Name:Steve
  • Location:Sydney
  • Joined: 23-August 13

Posted 13 June 2016 - 08:34 AM

Well, I will make a start towards the funding.

I reckon that there are plenty of us here on this forum and other Holden sites that have benefited significantly from John's writings about the Holden 6. So now is our chance to give something back to him.

I don't know 'oldjohnno', but I have benefited from him sharing his experiences and development of the Holden red 6. And I have long held a desire to go to Lake Gairdner - not as a competitor, but just to have a look. Unfortunately I'm not going to get down there any time soon.

It's not quite the same following someone else's adventure from my computer, but I hope this one goes ahead and I look forward to reading about it.

150 X $100 will fund it. What can we do??

 

Steve



#14 _oldjohnno_

_oldjohnno_
  • Guests

Posted 13 June 2016 - 11:20 AM

Steve, thank you so much for you generosity, I appreciate it and I'm glad you got something out of what I written over the years. To be honest, I was a bit embarrassed about the whole gofundme thing - and still am - but I'm still recovering from the loss of nearly 200k from the mining crash so when someone buys me a sparkplug or a tin of methanol for this adventure it means a lot to me.

 

Back to the 202 dyno thing - something else I looked at was truck/semitrailer disc brakes. BPW make some nice 430mm discs and calipers, and a pair of these back-to-back would probably handle a 202, provided you had a cooling fan. When I checked the pricing - and this was a few years ago now - I was surprised how cheap they were. After the way the bike brake has performed, I think this is the way I'd go with a 202 dyno. You could be confident that it would work and be controllable and you wouldn't have any noise issues. The only thing I'd add would be some way of ducting the hot air away from the engine - it has a massive effect on output.

 

You can make a wild-arsed guesstimate of the amount of energy and heat you'll need to handle by looking at how much heat is rejected by the radiator. We know that an engines energy output is split roughly three ways - about a third as power from the crankshaft, another third goes out the exhaust and the final third is thrown out as heat from the cooling system. So whatever heat energy your engine is now pumping out of the radiator at full noise is roughly equivalent to what the dyno absorber will have to deal with.

 

One more thing: after the first time you use your dyno I guarantee you'll say to yourself "Why the fuk didn't I do this years ago?"


Edited by oldjohnno, 13 June 2016 - 11:34 AM.


#15 RallyRed

RallyRed

    Oh My, Don't you post alot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,805 posts
  • Name:Col
  • Location:NSW
  • Car:LC GTR etc
  • Joined: 02-October 11

Posted 13 June 2016 - 11:49 AM

Reckon Im with Steve on this one...
I'd be happy to put towards it as well.
O.J. has also offered me plenty of plain old common sense help.. smattered with lots of knowledge thrown in.
Reckon if you held a BBQ at your dyno one weekend youd get a lot of guys turn up for a chat and donation. Just a thought...I know Id drive down from Newcastle for it.

#16 RallyRed

RallyRed

    Oh My, Don't you post alot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,805 posts
  • Name:Col
  • Location:NSW
  • Car:LC GTR etc
  • Joined: 02-October 11

Posted 13 June 2016 - 11:54 AM

.

Edited by RallyRed, 13 June 2016 - 12:00 PM.


#17 RallyRed

RallyRed

    Oh My, Don't you post alot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,805 posts
  • Name:Col
  • Location:NSW
  • Car:LC GTR etc
  • Joined: 02-October 11

Posted 13 June 2016 - 11:57 AM

P.s just donated...at the end it asks if youd like to share on F/B...do you want that John?..I didnt..in case youd prefer not...but it says x 3 more donotions from others expected if you do.? Your call of course.

#18 _oldjohnno_

_oldjohnno_
  • Guests

Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:05 PM

P.s just donated...at the end it asks if youd like to share on F/B...do you want that John?..I didnt..in case youd prefer not...but it says x 3 more donotions from others expected if you do.? Your call of course.

 

Thank you Col, I sincerely appreciate it. If you want to share on FB that's fine; it's up to you.

 

Might have to put a couple of GMH-Torana Forum stickers on the bike I think.



#19 LJ RB30

LJ RB30

    Forum Fixture

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 974 posts
  • Name:Trevor
  • Location:Perth
  • Joined: 12-March 09

Posted 08 July 2016 - 03:11 PM

Just donated!
Sharing your knowledge & experiences with everyone has saved me & no doubt many others lots off grief & money.
Best of luck with the bike & your attempt!

#20 lakeside

lakeside

    Lotsa Posts!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,703 posts
  • Name:Col
  • Location:melb
  • Car:LC SBC
  • Joined: 07-November 05

Posted 08 July 2016 - 04:39 PM

How fast is the speed record in class your enteried?

#21 _oldjohnno_

_oldjohnno_
  • Guests

Posted 08 July 2016 - 10:08 PM

Just donated!
Sharing your knowledge & experiences with everyone has saved me & no doubt many others lots off grief & money.
Best of luck with the bike & your attempt!

 

Thank you Trevor, the generosity of you blokes is very much appreciated and certainly helps the project along.

 

How fast is the speed record in class your enteried?

 

I'll probably be riding under MPS-F 350 or APS-F 350, depending on which way a frame modification is interpreted. The MPS record only stands at about 115mph at the moment, which sounds awfully slow but remember this is on salt and the temps are usually in the high 30s, so you could probably expect to run a good 10mph slower than you would on a sealed road at more normal temperatures.

 

But what I'd really like would be to match or exceed the speeds set by Bert Flood back in the 70's, when he ran his 360 Bultaco drag bike on a public road at over 150. Bert's bike ran a low dustbin fairing (not permitted on the lake because of stability issues) so it would have had less drag than my bike with its conventional TSS fairing. On the other hand I'm sure I'll have quite a bit more power on hand than Bert did, so matching his speed shouldn't be out of the question. Even though Berts runs may not stand as official records, they're what I'm aiming for.



#22 _Bomber Watson_

_Bomber Watson_
  • Guests

Posted 08 July 2016 - 10:15 PM

Ive been 130mph on 2 wheels..... On a comparitively modern bike with brakes and suspension that work and stuff. 

Your a far braver man than me chasing those speeds on that machine, all the power to you. 



#23 _oldjohnno_

_oldjohnno_
  • Guests

Posted 09 July 2016 - 06:09 AM

Ive been 130mph on 2 wheels..... On a comparitively modern bike with brakes and suspension that work and stuff. 

Your a far braver man than me chasing those speeds on that machine, all the power to you. 

 

The bike gives nothing away to modern stuff handling-wise, and in road-racing trim those sorts of speeds weren't that unusual.

 

Bert on the other hand was definitely brave. His ultra lightweight bike had a home-made rigid frame made out of very skinny tubing and what appears to be Bantam forks. Combined with the dustbin fairing I shudder to think what it was like to ride. The bike seized near the end of the first run, so he did a quick roadside rebuild of the top end in the limited time allowed between making the first and second runs. On the same day he made some 115mph runs with his 125cc Bul.



#24 Dodgey

Dodgey

    Forum Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 437 posts
  • Name:Steve
  • Location:Sydney
  • Joined: 23-August 13

Posted 09 July 2016 - 09:22 PM

Issue #52 of Transmoto Dirt Bike Magazine had an article about Nigel Petrie, a fitter and turner who transformed a well-used KTM 350SX-F into a salt racer that set an Australian land speed record at Lake Gairdner in 2015.
The build and the record attempt are the subject of a documentary, “Flats” that captures the entire project on film. Download the film and have a look – it is quite an adventure. Nigel and his mate Dean travel by motorcycle from Geelong to the Salt Flats encountering a number of mechanical and other dramas along the way. Once at the Salt Flats they achieve an Australian class record of 196.93kph on the home built motorcycle.
If any of this stuff interests you, then Nigel’s blog page Engineered to Slide  http://engineeredtoslide.com/blog/ is well worth perusing.



#25 Dodgey

Dodgey

    Forum Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 437 posts
  • Name:Steve
  • Location:Sydney
  • Joined: 23-August 13

Posted 10 July 2016 - 10:28 AM

Attached File  02_02_2016_KTM_350_ETS_03.jpg   248.21K   4 downloads

 

The Salt Flat Racer based on a 2012 KTM 350 SX-F






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users