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G-pak appreciation (or ridiculing/slamming) thread and its fit into the GMH big picture


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#1 yel327

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 12:08 PM

Started this to get away from Chriso-k's thread about his turret replacement, plus in discussing/arguing with Aaron about the G-pak's importance or lack of it some interesting stuff has come to light which raises more questions than it answers. Please feel free to add anything.

 

Firstly, why did GMH make the thing in the first place? They already had the SL/R, and all the Gpak was going to do was poach sales from the SL/R. Perhaps the answer lies in Norm's book where he says that sales were sluggish of it and many had to be sent to NZ to get rid of them, or words to that effect. Maybe it was an orphan before it was released and its release was a mistake? The SVP code for the car is XV1, and given the HQ SS is XV2 tells us the actual timing of the application of the codes is around the same time (note that codes were allocated in order, so XU8 was followed by XU9 then XV1. The V8 XU1 was XW7, so you can see XV1 and XV2 were allocated before the V8 XU1 was given a code). Off track for a second, given it was a late decision by GMH to cancel the HQ GTS coupe meaning HQ only had a V8 GTS coupe perhaps means that the SL/R was at some stage also going to be V8 only? Which would explain the need for a "sports" version of the LH 6cyl which the Gpak was. Looking at the timing of XV1 and XV2 together the Gpak and the HQ SS and their package similarities starts to make sense in that regard. However the HQ SS was released into the HQ model mix (albeit replaced soon after by the XV4 GTS sedan) as a stand-alone vehicle that was never gong to impact any sales other than those of Ford's GS/GT sedans or Chrysler's Pacer, whereas the Gpak was released in direct completion with the SL/R. Think about it today, if you could buy a 6cyl manual VF base spec Commodore with a lower ratio rear axle and a few sports options that screamed its head off at highway speeds for say $35,000 or for a few thousand more you could have an SV6 what would you choose? 

 

What the SS and Gpak do share though is they are both performance wise superior to their similar vehicle in the same series (or they vehicle that replaced it in the case of the SS). The Gpack with its 3.36 rear axle and lower weight would have felt much faster than the SL/R with its 3.08 rear axle (anyone who has road test 0-100 and 1/4 mile times and trap speeds for the Gpak and LH SL/R please add). The HQ SS was lighter that the GTS sedan that replaced it and with the extra power of the SS courtesy of its dual exhaust system and lower gearing with its 3.36 rear axle saw road testers manage to pull a 16.9s quarter mile time out of the car - the stock GTS with its single exhaust and 3.08 rear axle was a slug in comparison (road test times to come). In fact one magazine found a 253 3spd Kingswood sedan to be faster as the M20 and 3.08 combination with 14" tyres was not a good combination for quick acceleration. Road testers of the new 308 manual GTS sedan (with single exhaust and 3.36 rear axle) made comparisons to the SS, tests for the 308 manual GTS sedan returned 16.5s quarters (will add more data as I find it). Note that until this time all 253 and 308 GTS's came standard with single exhaust. The HQ SS was the first of its kind, it was standard with dual exhaust, only the GTS327/350 before it had N10 as standard. Hence the surprise of the magazine testers of the day - they'd been used to standard V8 GTS coupes with their 3.08 rear axles until they tested the SS.

 

Co-incidence or not - the LX SS Torana all had dual exhaust outlets just like the HQ SS? Did the VH SS Group1-3 standard vehicle (as in the 4.2L car) have a dual outlet exhaust as standard



#2 _Lazarus_

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 04:36 PM

I think the G-string had just come out.



#3 yel327

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 05:13 PM

Just found Wheels 11/72 road test on HQ SS.

 

Best 1/4 mile 16.9s, average 17.0s. 0-100mph 27.5s. Top speed 114mph.

 

Wheels reference in 6/73 to 253 manual GTS sedan when they were testing the GTS 308 manual  sedan was actually the SS figures from 11/72.

 

I still can't find proper figures for the Gpak. the closest so far is Sports Car World 9/74 test on the LH SL/R. Main difference is the 3.08 rear axle on the SL/R. 1/4 mile 18.3s, but no 0-100mph as it never got there - top speed 96mph so I guess the Gpak wouldn't either.



#4 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 07:49 PM

This is a very interesting thread, not that I have much to add. 

 

Personally if I was to buy another LH it would either be a G PACK or a SLR/3300, because im that way inclined and I like slightly left of center stuff, and outright performance or pissing contests dont interest me that much, I have silly race cars for the class there in, why do I need silly street cars? Not to mention in this day an age none of the vehicles were discussing are anything you would call remotely fast. 

 

That said, im surprised the SLR/3300 only got to 96mph, I had my LJ with a very slightly warmed over 173 up to 115mph... Doubt it would have made more power than a 202, mind it did have 2.78's in the back at the time and 15" rims. . 


Edited by Bomber Watson, 23 September 2016 - 07:50 PM.


#5 UCSLE

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 08:37 PM

how accurate are the 1/4 times done by GMH or journos , is it done by timing lights or just a stop watch ? .

most times seam a little slow (not by much) for what they are compared to some cars i have raced or seen race with stock or almost stock motors



#6 _LS1 Taxi_

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 09:07 PM

This is a very interesting thread, not that I have much to add. 
 
Personally if I was to buy another LH it would either be a G PACK or a SLR/3300, because im that way inclined and I like slightly left of center stuff, and outright performance or pissing contests dont interest me that much, I have silly race cars for the class there in, why do I need silly street cars? Not to mention in this day an age none of the vehicles were discussing are anything you would call remotely fast. 
 
That said, im surprised the SLR/3300 only got to 96mph, I had my LJ with a very slightly warmed over 173 up to 115mph... Doubt it would have made more power than a 202, mind it did have 2.78's in the back at the time and 15" rims. . 


I had a HG prem with stock 40 year old 186 pull 100mph.

I've nothing further to add.

#7 yel327

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 09:14 PM

how accurate are the 1/4 times done by GMH or journos , is it done by timing lights or just a stop watch ? .

most times seam a little slow (not by much) for what they are compared to some cars i have raced or seen race with stock or almost stock motors

 

They are very accurate and comparable if you note who the journos were. They had a special section of calibrated road they used to check the speedo accuracy, and they always used the same method on a manual: lift throttle for shift and always had two people in the car. They would do multiple runs and then publish the best and the average. The 0-100mph and the 1/4 mile trap speed times are far better comparisons between the cars anyway.

 

What you also have to be careful of with GMH is tweaked cars to slow them down, and every now and then a properly tuned car escaped and the truth was told. It didn't happen too often that a good one got to the hands of the Press, and when it did the Journos always seem to comment and scratch their heads. The notable cars and Journos that I can think of are:

 

HK GTS327 in Rob Luck's hands (private car not controlled by GMH).

HG GTS350 again with Rob Luck, followed up with another HG GTS350 in Peter Robbo's hands.

HQ GTS350 manual sedan in Wheels staffers hands in June 1973 (can't recall who). They managed a 15.8s quarter and 0-100mph in 20.7s. Prior attempts saw 23-24s.

HJ GTS 5.0L manual with optional dual exhaust and properly tuned - Journos were astounded in the car's pace as they were used to the old dunger HQ 308 engine with single exhaust.

Early LX SS 5.0L manual hatchback - again they were astounded and looking back to the HT-G GTS350 for a comparison. 

 

On dead stock car with a restrictive exhaust and standard restrictive air cleaner the inability to get to 100mph isn't uncommon. Bomber, that LH SLR at 160km/h is doing about 4500rpm, and at that speed and engine revs it simply hasn't got enough power and torque available to push it through the air. Wheels tested a 202 4spd HQ Monaro in 2/72. not sure on its diff ratio but it managed a 19.2s quarter and top speed of 94mph. I suspect it had a 3.55:1 rear axle but that's with 14" tyres. The 3.55 with 14" tyres is the equivalent of about a 3.16:1 rear axle with the 13" tyres which isn't that much different to the LH SL/R's 3.08. The slower 1/4 mile time and the slightly lower top speed will simply be the extra weight and frontal area of the HQ.



#8 RallyRed

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 09:18 PM

not much to add here either....almost bought one back in the very early eighties,...dont recall it being slow or fast, just a 6 cyl. Torana feel to it.

Orange with the blue stripes.

It was for my missues...she didnt like it...went for a VW Golf instead....oh, the shame


Edited by RallyRed, 23 September 2016 - 09:19 PM.


#9 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 10:21 PM

On dead stock car with a restrictive exhaust and standard restrictive air cleaner the inability to get to 100mph isn't uncommon. Bomber, that LH SLR at 160km/h is doing about 4500rpm, and at that speed and engine revs it simply hasn't got enough power and torque available to push it through the air. Wheels tested a 202 4spd HQ Monaro in 2/72. not sure on its diff ratio but it managed a 19.2s quarter and top speed of 94mph. I suspect it had a 3.55:1 rear axle but that's with 14" tyres. The 3.55 with 14" tyres is the equivalent of about a 3.16:1 rear axle with the 13" tyres which isn't that much different to the LH SL/R's 3.08. The slower 1/4 mile time and the slightly lower top speed will simply be the extra weight and frontal area of the HQ.

 

Byron, are you absolutely certain that isnt your confirmation bias kicking in?

 

After all your quick to point out there were "freaks" (non detuned veeate vehicles) in the hands of the press, but as soon as a six banger doesnt meet the benchmark your quick to assume they were all like that....

 

We all know you hate every single six cylinder model of Holden, atleast where there was a veeate option available, I know you will never admit that the injected black motor went quicker down the quarter than the 253 equiv commy back in the day in the exact same testing your talking about, and I dont care....

But ffs, a stock Holden six can push dang near anything past 100mph....



#10 yel327

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 08:37 AM

No bias, just reading straight out of the road test reports. It is now well known that GMH muzzled most of the higher performance Press test cars as they didn't want unwanted attention to them. However there was no need to do that to the run of the mill 6's.

 

The only road test of a standard red 202 (as in not an XU1) of the day that I can find that got to 100mph was Sports Car World September 1973, an LJ SL sedan, 202 4spd managed to get a top speed of 101mph and a 1/4 mile time of 17.6s. This is totally consistent with the lighter car with smaller frontal area than the LH and the HQ that I pointed out before. Modern Motor also got bang on 100mph out of a 173 auto LJ SL in January 1973. So the real world evidence using corrected speedos actually show very few bog standard Holden 6's could exceed 100mph. Even a 186S HK GTS as tested in Motor manual in October 1968 (M20 and 3.36 and 6.95S14 tyres) only managed 102mph, which is perfectly consistent with the 5litre HK GTS in the same test that got 108mph. It is just how it is.

 

Everyone knows the VK EFI 3.3 was faster than a single exhaust 4.2L VH. GMH advertised that all over the place so they could sell it! The VK EFI engine had 106kW@4400rpm and 266Nm@3200 DIN compared to the single exhaust 4.2 with 100kW@4200 and 269Nm@2000, and so it should have with extractors and a damn near 30/70 camshaft. GMH conveniently forgot to mention the dual exhaust 4.2 output though, but that is the smoke and mirrors of advertising for you. Dual exhaust VH 4.2 was 115kw@4400 and 289Nm@3200. In the end neither are of any interest to me, there was a 5.0L V5H option available in VH and VK that makes them both look like anchors, 180kW@4750 and 430Nm@3500, not to mention the awesome VK GroupA engine.

 

And Bomber I don't hate 6cyl cars, I just simply don't see the point in wasting time and $ on one when there are better options available that produce far more power for far less time, effort and $. I drive a 6cyl car every day and it is the same 6cyl engine that you drive as well. If there was a V8 option i'd take it over the 6cyl almost every time though.



#11 _imj411_

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 10:31 AM

I am just a little surprised that going off of the information from the road testing it would make the LJ GTR no faster and mabey slower than both the LC models? I was also thinking about the weight you said it sounds good in theroy. I just don't think that the six cylinder sl/r weight is 1183 that sounds like the 5000 weight. I believe you Byron you dont talk shit and know your stuff. The weight difference between a S and SLR would be sway bars a extra gear, wider wheels, Brake Booster, Arm rests and rubber bumper strips, extra gauges and fancier trim inside and out. I think that the bench seat would weigh the same as 2 buckets and a console. I don't think that a 308 will add as much weight as that to a Torana how much of that is the salsbury over the Banjo? I know that the 5000 would have added spoilers to the weight. Cheers Aaron.

#12 yel327

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 11:13 AM

Didn't an LJ GTR have a better aircleaner than an SL? That alone would help, but I can't find an LJ GTR road test.

 

In a HJ buckets are 15kg over a bench, but that is without the console (it would include a seat separator though). You couldn't option a console in HJ but in HZ it adds 6kg over not having it. This is from GMH Engineering specifications.

 

The 1183kg for an LH SL/R is also out of GMH documentation.

 

To add a 4.2L to a HJ it is 61kg over a 2.85 (3.3 is 4kg over the 2.85). 5.0L is another 3kg so 64kg. These weights would include the revised components that go with the option like the bigger radiator and larger engine pipes. 

 

I don't have the weight difference between a Salisbury and a banjo, however in HZ Engineering specs a 4.2L and 3spd manual over a 3.3 and 3spd manual is 72kg for both the tonner and the ute/van so that says they weigh the same as the tonner already has a Salisbury.

 

Dual exhaust on a HZ Kingswood sedan adds 13kg but this is slightly heavier than a Torana as the Torana exhaust would be a little shorter and uses smaller rear tailpipes.

 

As a guess maybe the Gpak might be 25kg lighter than the SL/R. When I get hold of the LH Engineering docs we'll know for sure.



#13 Statler

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 02:14 PM

As a guess maybe the Gpak might be 25kg lighter than the SL/R. When I get hold of the LH Engineering docs we'll know for sure.

Until the sticker kit went on. 

 

Why bother trying to measure performance? It wasn't a performance car! 



#14 yel327

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 02:26 PM

Until the sticker kit went on. 

 

Why bother trying to measure performance? It wasn't a performance car! 

 

Because it had a "performance" rear axle and was a lighter car than the LH SL/R. Very much the LH mirror of the HQ SS as Aaron says, actual performance aside as the SS is a quicker car. Both appear to be GMH's attempts at a Sports Sedan in their respective series. My head-scratching is all about the reason for the Gpak as it doesn't seem to be a logical fit into LH. 
 



#15 Statler

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 02:49 PM

How does it not fit? (figures for arguements sake.)

The S was around $4000.

The SLR6 around $5100.

The Slackpack was a 'S' with around $500 of extras so it comes in around $4500. I can almost hear the salesmen now .... " What if i said i could get you a SLR but for S money? Sign here!" 

 

Just a way of clearing out old stock. All that surplus black vynal left over from the Pus4 program. 



#16 yel327

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 04:36 PM

Read the first post again Col. It doesn't fit as there was already a sports 6cyl sedan in the LH range (SL/R) so all it would really do would be take sales away from the SL/R. Plus its option code timing puts it way back at the same time as the HQ SS. My point being maybe the LH SL/R was meant to be V8 only like the HQ GTS became after the HQ GTS was dropped prior to HQ production (it was to be a 202S engine), and the Gpak was to be the LH sporty 6cyl.



#17 _imj411_

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 06:09 PM

Not a performance model. Obviously not a high performance model but more a sports. In 1975 it was. If a LS mini was and a 253 auto GTS is so is a Gpack. Byron was there to be a 202s? At a guess a a 150hp or so engine, Cheers Aaron.

Edited by imj411, 24 September 2016 - 06:13 PM.


#18 yel327

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 07:21 PM

Yes, the GTS coupe was meant to continue in HQ and the engine was a 202S. It was dropped pre HQ production and only the V8 GTS coupe remained. The loss of this car explains why the LJ GTR didn't get an S engine.
150hp would be pretty close to the mark. 186S is 15hp more than HT 186 (same cam) and 20hp more than HK 186 (smaller cam) and HQ 202 has peak 135hp power at same revs as HT 186 so yeah, 150hp.

#19 Statler

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 07:29 PM

Read the first post again Col. It doesn't fit as there was already a sports 6cyl sedan in the LH range (SL/R) so all it would really do would be take sales away from the SL/R. 

Perhaps if  the SLR6 had been  a 'hot potato'? I doubt they were sold in any significant numbers because when the V'D' box was ticked, a 4.2 car was just a few $ more. 

 

Maybe The General had anticipated a lot more sales of the VD cars? The 'sports' steering wheel & gauge package would cost pittance (a good mark up for the dealers, share the love) They couldn't exactly offer a 'SLR6' alternative with the same interior could they? That would annoy all those (both) who paid the premium for a SLR6. So what to do with all those left over bits? 

 

I know ..... lets offer the 'S' bodied cars; that aren't selling ( but gee the SL is doing well) in limited colors. Stitch a strip of color into the otherwise plain black seats (using up a backlog of surplus black/charchol vynal that some dodo ordered by mistake ( honestly ... there was no drugs or sex involved ) , throw in a 'sports' instrument cluster ( just different enough to satisfy Joe Public's question at his first service interval) & a typically '70's pinstripe package & suddenly those stagnant 'S' pack bodies are rolling out the door. For $500 less than the SLR6. 

 

I see the 1975 Torana as the last Aussie value for money car. Big call huh?

 

In '76 the Torana changed. Gone was the 'bling'! The expensive stainless trim was swapped out for a cheaper alluminum trim. The cast letters on the nosecone lost for a sticker. Even the tail lamp buckets became 'plastic'. America had arrived & so had plastic. .

 

I'm trying to think if there was a 'badge engineered' car in the LX range. Nothing springs to mind. Perhaps the General learned from his 2 failed attempts with the Pus4 & Slackpack? Probably not, the LE was just around the corner. :)



#20 yel327

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 07:55 PM

The XV1 code on the Gpak puts its inception around late 71 into 72, so well before they had any idea how any LH would sell. The LE was designed before they had any idea about the sales performance of LH. It was added as an essentially completed design to the HJ options list in Dec 1975, around the time they put the remainder of the HJ coupe bodies together that became the LE.

#21 Statler

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 08:12 PM

Read the code as more a contingency plan than a chronological timeline. 



#22 S pack

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 09:02 PM

I wonder if sales of the SL/R had slowed due to rising insurance costs so the Gpak was rolled out an alternative that was cheaper to insure?

 

Bit like optioning up a 1973 LJ S with 202 4spd and GTR equipment without the GTR insurance premium.


Edited by S pack, 24 September 2016 - 09:03 PM.


#23 _imj411_

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 09:42 PM

Gpacks must have sold well they did a second batch didn't they? I'm sure that they sold plenty of 202 SLR's as well so there must be more to the story like Byron says, cheers Aaron.

#24 RallyRed

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 09:57 PM

Aren't most of these things..G Pak, LE, Vacationer, SS Black, or whatever, ..just a way of promoting "value" to the punters, while purging the warehouse of soon to be redundant parts?

Edited by RallyRed, 24 September 2016 - 09:58 PM.


#25 StephenSLR

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:14 AM

You may find some answers here:

 

http://www.gmh-toran...orana-lh-g-pak/

 

s


Edited by StephenSLR, 25 September 2016 - 10:16 AM.





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