32 replies to this topic

[Cook]

Hi,

 

I am putting a 253, 4 speed manual into a WB ute.  The clutch cable bracketry (push type) at the bell housing and the bell housing is out of an LX  torana.  Instead of having to source a WB bell housing and components, I am wondering if there is any fundamental issues if I just buy a WB V8 clutch cable but have the bell housing end changed to same as the Torana shackle type arrangement.

 

Also does anyone know if the HZ cable is the same as WB (both push type).  Only reason I ask is Restos are advertising one that fits all, but Rares are only listing as HZ and can't confirm if they are the same as the don't sell the WB cable.

 

Any other simple suggestions appreciated but thought this may be the simplest/cheapest. Hope that makes sense.  Cheers Ron

[yel327]

You can sort of make it work but you are far better off finding a mid 1978 onwards full cable bellhousing and clutch fork from a HZ, WB or VB to VK V8.
In either case you need a late HZ or WB V8 clutch pedal and cable. The V8 clutch pedal pivots in the bottom hole (look and you'll see what I mean, 6cyl pedal goes in the top hole).

With the Torana V8 rat-trap you can use a HZ clutch cable (I think 6cyl and V8 are the same) but you need a HX or early HZ clutch pedal (6 and V8 are the same) and the stuff around it, this will go in the bottom pivot hole in a WB. Far messier setup than the full cable and HX and early HZ always had a heavy clutch. The HX and early HZ rat-trap is a lot different to a Torana V8 one too, but they should be close. To be sure you should measure the distance of the hook from the pivot for a HX/Z pedal and the same on Torana.

[Cook]

Thanks Yel.  I agree with what you are telling me but I guess I am hoping I can utilise the Torana fittings/bellhousing at the gearbox to the WB fittings at the pedal by simply getting a WB V8 cable and changing the gearbox end to the Torana fittings. That way all I have to do is source a WB V8 pedal (which are hard to find and I wonder how different they are to a 6cyl one).  I am told that the only real difference is the hook on a V8 is slightly higher, presumably to accommodate the location in the bottom hole.

 

To do it the other way, I virtually have to replace what I currently have with  WB or the like set-up and some of those parts are either difficult to source or expensive.  I'll keep thinking about it and see if any other options arise..  Thanks Ron

[yel327]

WB V8 pedal pivots in the bottom hole and thus the hook end is further away from the pivot, plus the pedal pad is closer to the pivot. It is done like this as the V8 clutch cable needs more pull on it, the 6cyl WB clutch pedal won't give enough cable pull to operate the V8 clutch fork. This is similarly why you can't simply put a cable clutch bellhousing into a Torana and use a UC 6cyl clutch pedal.

 

You can buy repro WB V8 clutch pedals.

 

What you have might work but you need a WB V8 pedal to have any chance. It would be easier to find a HX or early HZ clutch pedal and cable as I described and use that with the Torana setup - it will give you the same pull movement as a WB V8 pedal. However you will need the bits that go with the pedal, like the stop and the surround/support.   

[Cook]

Here's an update FWIW.  I got a clutch cable made up that fitted the torana v8 push fork fittings at the bellhouse end and WB fittings and V8 pedal at the pedal end.  I replaced the clutch plate, pressure plate and TOB with what I believe was the correct one (EXEDY) and I believe I installed them correctly. All seemed ok until I tried to shift into gear whilst the engine was running.  No go.  It will shift reasonably comfortably when the engine is off but reverse is a struggle.  My problem now is trying to diagnose where the issue is, is it not enough travel in the PP, the cable or could it be binding on the flywheel.  Bear in mind I know little about the mechanics just what I have been able to learn from here and the web.  I have tried starting the car whilst in gear and foot on clutch but it just jumps forward.  Tried rocking the car to see if it may help loosen if binding but no go.  Next step more than likely, unless I someone can throw another option at me, will be to take it to clutch place to see what they can tell me.    Cheers Ron

[Bigfella237]

How heavy is the clutch pedal?

 

Does it feel like it's loaded right from the top of the stroke?

 

How far does the clutch fork travel (not that I'd know how far a standard clutch fork travels anyway)?

 

Unless the clutch plate is in backwards (?) it sounds like the math is all wrong, looking at the V8 Torana clutch mechanism, it looks like it roughly halves the cable travel that you'd get if the cable was pulling directly on the fork...

 

 

...that would be fine if the pedal was setup with the same fulcrum lengths as a Torana, but you're using components from two different systems on either end.

 

I'd say you either need to swap bellhousings and use the proper WB cable, or maybe just convert the whole damn thing to hydraulic?

Edited by Bigfella237, 08 August 2017 - 12:02 AM.

[S pack]

Somewhere in your set up the geometry is wrong. Are you sure you have a WB V8 clutch pedal?

 

What you describe is exactly what happens if you try to use a 6cyl pedal on a V8 cable setup.

 

If you adjust the cable so the clutch pedal pad sits about 1" to 2" above the brake pedal pad height you should achieve full clutch disengagement.

I only make the above suggestion as a test not as a permanent fix.

Edited by S pack, 08 August 2017 - 08:14 AM.

[Cook]

Andrew, I guess that was always a risk.  My rationale was the engine and gearbox were mated up in the Torana and it worked, so if I had a cable made up with the only change being the pedal end then it shouldn't alter enough to make it not operate.  The only thing I did at the time (which I was just thinking about) was to make the cable the same length as the WB V8 cable.  It's a bit tricky to get accurate measurements but I reckon I have about an inch free travel in the pedal before it feels like it is loading up.  I did wonder about the clutch plate being around the wrong way and I did it a while ago but I did do a fair bit of research before had so am quietly confident it's in right.  From some of the info on the net it sounds like it isn't that easy to put one in incorrectly.  I'll try and measure the fork movement but it is noticeable say and inch or more.

 

Dave, I bought a WB v8 pedal from Restos and I located it in the lower hole in the pedal bracket as per the manual so I think I'm right there.  What I don't have at present but can't see that it would alter anything, is a return spring.  The reason being the Restos aftermarket pedal doesn't allow for it so I will have to make it up in due course.  I'll try and adjust the pedal up and see what happens.  I thought I would risk the $100 on a cable otherwise it is going to cost me twice that plus some for bellhousing and bracketry.  Maybe false economy? A few people have queried why I didn't go hydraulic but ther is a ramp up in costs again. lol  Cheers Ron

[S pack]

WB cable clutch didn't have a clutch pedal return spring so should not be an issue in regards to the clutch not fully disengaging.

 

Have an assistant operate the clutch pedal whilst you adjust and ensure you don't over adjust the cable.

[Cook]

Will do.  FWIW according to the manual it should have a return spring.  I can't copy the page unfortunately as it's a protected file.  Cheers Ron

[S pack]

Will do.  FWIW according to the manual it should have a return spring.  I can't copy the page unfortunately as it's a protected file.  Cheers Ron

My WB Tonner never had a return spring. Now you've got me wondering what happened to it before we bought it. lol.

[Cook]

Dave,  Forgot I had the service manual.  Here's a scan of the page.  Cheers Ron

Attached Files

•  Clutch Pedal Setup.pdf   233.98K   19 downloads

[S pack]

Thanks Ron.

 

I remember now. Back in the early 90's we had 'The Bump Shop' replace the whole plenum (rusted) with a good one from a HZ but the WB pedal brace thing is different to HZ so they had to remove HZ one and fit the WB parts.

They must have lost the return spring during the repairs and didn't bother to procure another one.  Clutch still worked fine, just you could put your toe under the pedal pad and pull the pedal up towards the dash.

[Cook]

For anyone interested I stripped the push rod thread whilst I was backing it off which doesn't surprise me given the adjustments I've been doing to it over the last few weeks.  So have had enough and conceded defeat and bought a WB bellhousing etc and will fit that up.  Better to have tried and failed.... Cheers Ron

[Bigfella237]

There's likely a lesson to be learned in there somewhere?

 

Make sure you get the pull-type clutch fork and throwout bearing/holder as well as they're completely different to the push-type, also if going to a wrecking yard, try to snag the black plastic cover that clips over the slot in the bellhousing too?

[Cook]

Thanks guys for the advice.  I ended up buying a new fork, bearing etc from Dellow.  Not cheap but I'm told they are well made.  Got the cable and plastic locating cone from Restos and no surprise, the cone was a Dellows one. One positive, I took the opportunity to have a closer look at the shifter linkages etc. and decided to change a few clips etc, make some minor adjustments and it feels a lot better.  Anyway, been avoiding putting it back in for two reasons, working upside down under the car isn't my favourite position (LOL) and fearful that something may still be amiss. Been trying my hand at remaking the door trims in the meantime.  Another fun job.  Cheers Ron 

[Cook]

Well I have replaced all the parts needed and the good news is I have 1st and 2nd gear but no others when the car is running.  All ok when not running.  Before I do anything more, is this likely to be a symptom of more adjustment needed or something else.  I have some adjustment left in the pivot ball, albeit it is a pain to get at.  Cheers Ron

[Bigfella237]

How did you adjust the pivot ball when you installed it?

 

From memory there is a specific height measurement but I can't remember what it is? I've got the workshop manual from an early Commodore around here somewhere which should be the same but I can't seem to find it right now, hopefully somebody here can remember?

 

EDIT: Found this from Dellow...

 

 Instructions-Pivot-Ball.pdf   367.21K   11 downloads

Edited by Bigfella237, 19 August 2017 - 09:57 AM.

[Bigfella237]

Also found this from EXEDY, which says it's for M20 & M21 but talks about V6 engines, seems a tad confusing...

 

 TNE.pdf   378.62K   10 downloads

[Cook]

Thanks Andrew.  I didn't have any instructions, just advice from Dellows to leave a 4mm air gap between bearing and fingers.  What I did was assemble the pivot ball and fork onto the bellhousing and adjusted it out as far as possible, with the view of adjusting it back in as required, once all fitted up.  So I adjusted the clutch cable to get the pedal where I believed it should be. I'm now at that point so I seem to have a few problems. 

1 - bearing seems to be fairly tight against the fingers at rest so not sure how I obtain the gap.

2 - as it sits, I only have 1st & 2nd gear so assume pivot ball needs inward adjustment

3 - pivot ball is tight to adjust in, so would have to back something off to get it to somewhere near 50% in

4 - if I do as above I suspect bearing will be tighter against fingers and can't see any hope of maintaining the 4mm gap. 

 

I think in my case, a little knowledge (and I say little in capital letters) can be dangerous.  LOL

 

Sounds like it all has to come out again?  Cheers Ron

[Cook]

Daz, I will leave that to smarter minds than mine to answer but I think it's going to be difficult to achieve.  Cheers Ron

[S pack]

The throwout bearing on the pull type cable clutch should have zero clearance or lash between it and the diaphragm fingers.

[S pack]

How did you adjust the pivot ball when you installed it?

 

From memory there is a specific height measurement but I can't remember what it is? I've got the workshop manual from an early Commodore around here somewhere which should be the same but I can't seem to find it right now, hopefully somebody here can remember?

 

EDIT: Found this from Dellow...

 

Instructions-Pivot-Ball.pdf

Those instructions are for a hydraulic or mechanically actuated push type clutch not a pull type cable clutch.