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torana wont start , has no spark !

V8 torana

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#1 _uc9669_

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 11:46 AM

someone please help me . I have a 1975 factory LH V8 torana auto with factory A/C if that makes a different . When I take it out for a drive , the 3rd time you go to start it , it will start , but then stops , it will turn over but will not start . there is no spark , been tow to the workshop twice now and keep getting told its the points , First time they regap then , second time put new ones in and a condsenor but now it has happen again . dont know what to do anymore . I dont drive it all that much , but its happen the last 3 times I have drove it .



#2 Bigfella237

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 12:11 PM

If it was electronic ignition I'd say it was the module, I've had this same 'hot start - no ignition' thing on a couple of the HEI modules in Commodores, but you say it has points ignition so it's obviously not that.

 

The good news is that you can predict or even make it do it.

 

So start with the basics, with the fault present, measure the supply voltage to the coil + (through the standard Torana wiring loom), it should be about 8v (roughly) with just the ignition on and full battery voltage when cranking (the resistor wire in the loom is a fairly common problem)?

 

If that's okay, connect a timing light to the coil lead and confirm whether the coil is firing while cranking?

 

If not then connect a dwell meter to the coil - and crank again, this should confirm the points are working, if you do get a dwell reading then it almost has to be the coil?

 

If you don't get a dwell reading then it pretty much has to be something to do with the points?

 

Does it come good by itself after a cool down or is it just dead after it happens?



#3 mick_in_oz

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 01:49 PM

If it is a points issue, and they have closed up each time the trouble as happened, then I'd say whoever has worked on it hasn't installed the points correctly, or more to the point, they haven't lubricated the dizzy which should be done as part of a service or repair.

 

The top of the dizzy shaft (under the rotor button) has a hole in it and it should have a felt pad inside which is supposed to be lubricated, or soaked in oil, and during operation a small bit of oil will make its way out and down onto the lobes that operate the points, this stops the rubbing block on the points from wearing and closing the points gap.

 

You could do a simple test by lifting the dizzy cap and rotating the engine till the points are sitting on top of the lobe and measure the points gap and see if it is correct or significantly closed up.

 

Another passing thought is to see if there is much sideways movement on the dizzy shaft in case the dizzy has badly worn bushes/bearings.



#4 _uc9669_

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 03:33 PM

its just dead after it happens .



#5 r2160

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 04:04 PM

Why not hook a wire from the positive side of the battery to the positive side of the coil and try again. It might just be a bad connection powering the coil

#6 EunUCh

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 05:19 PM

Had a similar thing happen once , turned out to be the HT lead that goes into dizzy cap from coil had fried the lead connection inside the cap or coil and the spark was trying to get through a mess of corrosion from moisture that caused the problem.

 

If the points/cond./coil/volts check out then just pull the lead out of the center of the cap while you hold the end of the lead about an inch or so from something metallic while someone winds it over , should get a nice bluey/purple spark.

The not being driven much can sometimes lead to corrosion in places you would think should not happen.


Edited by EunUCh, 01 March 2017 - 05:19 PM.


#7 mick_in_oz

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 05:19 PM

Yeah well if the points have closed up it will not have any spark.

 

You need to check all of the above stuff as its likely the trouble has been covered, and there is some good how to info in the above advice.



#8 S pack

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 05:37 PM

Would be a pretty useless mechanic if he can't set up a set of contact points properly. I'd throw a new coil and a set of high tension leads on just for shits and giggles.

 

I will say though that I bought and fitted a brand new Bosch condenser to my 202 a few years ago and suddenly had heaps of trouble getting it to start. Took it out and put the old condenser back in and the problem disappeared. 



#9 axistr

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 06:13 PM

Had the same problem a few times over the years, if the car starts then stops after the key is returned to the run position or stops during driving ,can be either the wire between the coil and ignition switch or the connection on the terminals of the ignition switch it self. Also check the ignition switch adjustment, if the switch is out of adjustment and contact is at a minimum small vibrations can cause the contacts to open circuit.   



#10 _hutch_

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 06:45 PM

First thing to do is get a test light,with the ign on check the positive side of the coil,then crank the engine,the light should obviously stay on,next go to the negative side of the coil,it should pulse while the engine is cranking

#11 _uc9669_

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 07:19 PM

have replaced the coil , the leads , the points and the condsenor  and it still doing it , its happen the last 3 times I have driven it . car starts and drives fine , then as I go shopping , by the third time I go to start it , it starts but then stalks and just wont start . Keep getting told its the points , and they regap then or replace then and it runs fine for then . Car is seating in garage again and it just wont start .



#12 S pack

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 08:23 PM

Have you tried some 'start ya bastard' down the carby just to be sure it isn't a fuel issue?



#13 Bigfella237

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 08:47 PM

Yeah something funny going on, I'd say it was heat related but it may well be wiring getting hot and going open-circuit too (car left locked up in the sun)?

 

As I said, check the basic stuff first, see if you can make it shit itself then test the supply voltages, there's a good chance that it's the 40 year old Torana wiring to blame?

 

If it does start and run, try reaching up under the dash and giving the wiring harness a wiggle too, if the engine cuts out or even splutters consistently, you likely have a bad connection somewhere around the column?

 

Also check the main engine harness connector up near the wiper motor, they often get corrosion in there too.

 

There's a hundred things it could be, but you can narrow down the area pretty quick using the advice above, if you have supply voltage problems it's in the switch or wiring, if you don't then it's something on the motor?



#14 rodomo

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 10:58 PM

As others have mentioned already about the coil voltage, if it has 12v constantly through a 9v coil it will fry the points pretty quick. Also check the engine harness plug behind the brake booster for bad connections.

#15 _uc9669_

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 04:44 AM

I have also replaced the fuel pump and put in a fuel filter as well just before the fuel pump . will go get some of that spray to spray down the carby , but you can see and smell fuel in the carby when it happens . will check out the wiring as well , thanks .



#16 axistr

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 08:29 AM

If you have no spark you can throw what ever you like down the intake and it will make no difference to the starting problen. If it has no spark, now is the best time to do the tests. As mentioned just use a 12 volt test light at the coil + positive terminal, with the ignition on you shoud have a reasonably good glow on the test light globe. If  the light is not coming on or very dull your problem is in the ignition feed and work back along this wire till you find the open circuit, a volt meter to check the actual voltage is also a good idea. NOTE  LED test light will glow the same weather the circuit has 3 volts or 16 volts.

 

 Also check with the test light that you have a good power supply at the coil + positive terminal while you are cranking. There are two power circuits to the coil + positive terminal 12v when cranking and the reduced voltage of 9 volts when the ignition is in the run position. I think your problem is before the coil, but if tests show otherwise the problem may be in the distributor, assuming the parts you have already replaced are good and installed correctly.  Its a very simple electrical system and only needs the basics tools to test.

 

One last easy test you can do, if you have a good power supply to the coil remove the distributor cap, make sure the underside of the cap isn't cracked, excessively dirty or the small carbon plunger on the centre coil terminal isn't damaged. If the cap is in good condition, with the points closed (may have to turn the engine slightly to the flat on the dissy cam) use a small screwdriver to open the points. Flicking the points open and closed should give you a nice blue spark from the coil. Just have the coil lead removed from the cap and placed in a position that it can spark to ground, should jump a 3/8" gap very easy. Make sure you don't have any flammables around the spark test area. 



#17 _uc9669_

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 07:13 PM

great news , now the car wont start at all , there is nothing , no dash lights , no headlights and the engine doesnt start or anything , there is no power at all , could it be the ignition start switch on the steering column ?



#18 hanra

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 07:33 PM

Fusible link off the starter motor B+ stud. All pretty simplistic.

#19 EunUCh

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 07:41 PM

Great news , now there is a real fault that can be traced ? :)



#20 fuzzypumper

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 07:44 PM

great news , now the car wont start at all , there is nothing , no dash lights , no headlights and the engine doesnt start or anything , there is no power at all , could it be the ignition start switch on the steering column ?

I like how optimistically pessimistic you started your statement.

 

^ What Brad said. Also check main battery leads to starter and body.

Also unplug and check the engine wiring loom plug above the brake booster

as this carries the main 12v feed to the ignition switch.

 

At least the fault has become more permanent and wont be as hard to find as an intermittent one.



#21 _hutch_

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 08:02 PM

Do you own a multimeter,if you don't go buy one and I can help you sort out your troubles

#22 Bigfella237

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 08:41 PM

Again, check the basics first!!

 

If the original wiring problem also meant the alternator wasn't charging, then it's possible your battery has just finally gone flat and that's what's causing all your secondary system failures (headlights etc.)

 

So check the battery voltage first, clean the terminals, charge and then load-test if necessary.

 

Next look at your earth leads, both battery-to-engine and battery-to-body, make sure they're tight, clean, undamaged, etc.

 

If all of that is okay, then test for battery volts at the big post on the back of the alternator (engine does not need to be running) and the same at the big post on the starter.

 

If you have battery voltage at both places, the next most likely culprit is the big wire running off the starter and back into the wiring loom, that wire supplies power to everything in the car (including the ignition switch) and it has a fusible link built into the wire. Also check whether it's been melted by the exhaust for some reason?

 

If you can't get under the car to test at the starter, unplug the main engine harness connector (the one near the brake booster) and test for voltage at the big red wire coming from the engine side?

 

Then keep tracking back whichever way doesn't have power.






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