22 replies to this topic

[warrenm]

I know this isn't a Torana subject, but I'm  sure someone here may be able to answer my query.

I had an inquiry about an EJ station wagon, fitted with a "red motor" & disc brake front end. To my knowledge the EJ was fitted with only a Grey motor, not a red, but this gent swears that the last of the EJ's were fitted with a red. His proof is https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Holden_EJ ( got to love the internet for accuracy). I know the disc brake front end is from a HD/HR. I hope one of the knowledgeable ones will be able to confirm or deny.

[LJ RB30]

No red motor & no disc brakes on EJ

Lol a quick read of wiki & yes it will have a GREY 138!
Early greys were 132

Gray motor mounts aren't in the middle of the motor like reds so a red won't drop in in place of a grey without welding mounts on the front end etc etc

Edited by LJ RB30, 18 March 2017 - 11:12 AM.

[Shiney005]

David Morley (the motoring journalist) has had an article on this subject in Unique Cars magazine over the recent past. There have been a few people writing in saying they had late EJs with red motors, but no photographic evidence has been supplied. I would have thought that any red motor factory fitted into an EJ would have a different prefix on the engine number to the EH.

[S pack]

GMH would have known from the production schedule exactly how many more EJ's were to be made so it's not likely they would have run out of grey motors.

 

Also, panel vans and utes that got red motors were EH series although they still had the EJ rear styling. 

[warrenm]

Thanks. I remember reading an article years ago stating that Grey motors were available some years later as stationary engines etc. This bloke was trying to get on NSW Historic rego. which I've put on hold for now, he would be able to use the new Classic rego. which the process takes a few days longer.

[S pack]

Grey motors were definitely still available for service replacement after EJ production had ended.

 

[LJ RB30]

I suppose it's possible to fit an EH front under it but it would still be a kingpin set up.

The floorpan would also need to be modified to accept a rear gearbox mounted cross member!

This I find hard to believe that Holden would tool up to do this for a small handful of vehicles.

I would like to see actual evidence that one exists.

Would be a rare beast

[S pack]

I suppose it's possible to fit an EH front under it but it would still be a kingpin set up.

The floorpan would also need to be modified to accept a rear gearbox mounted cross member!

This I find hard to believe that Holden would tool up to do this for a small handful of vehicles.

I would like to see actual evidence that one exists.

Would be a rare beast

 

What you suggest is feasible.

The EJ and EH share the same chassis and all the parts for building the EH were production ready by the end of the EJ series so installing an EH front suspension member and the extra parts needed for the gearbox support member in an EJ would have been possible.
 

Edited by S pack, 18 March 2017 - 02:19 PM.

[LJ RB30]

What you suggest is feasible.
The EJ and EH share the same chassis and all the parts for building the EH were production ready by the end of the EJ series so installing an EH front suspension member and the extra parts needed for the gearbox support member in an EJ would have been possible.

Anything is possible I spose but highly doubt it was tooled up as production line car.

Anybody see one? Any documentation?

Plenty of EJ were fitted with red motors years later, my uncle did one.
A cousin has an EH Prem that had power steering fitted (had the pump missing so the rest is sitting in his shed to be fitted again soon)

Warrenm does this EJ have balljoint or kingpin front end?

If it's balljoint it's likely just the usual HD/R conversion that's common for the last 40+ years.

But if it's the rocking horse poo magical red powered EJ then BUY IY NOW!!

[Dr Terry]

Didn't the HD retain the king pin drum drake front end with the HR converting over to the ball joint disc brake front end?

Not so !! The HD only had the king pin style front suspension for about 5 months. The HD series was released on 15th Feb 1965 & the ball-joint front end officially entered production on 1st June 1965, with disc brakes becoming optional at the same time. The HR continued with the ball-joint front with discs also being optional.

 

So there are more HDs with ball-joints than kingpins & there are more HD/HRs with 4 wheel drum brakes than those front discs.

 

I find it strange as an HD fan of over 50 years, that these front end units are more often referred to as HR front ends, when they actually debuted in the HD series.

 

Dr Terry

 

P.S. The only EJs with Red motors were those prototypes or mules used for pre-production testing of the new engine. There was no reason for GM-H to fit Red motors on the production line anyway. Firstly there was no shortage of Greys near the end of EJ production, Holden were selling both brand new short & long Grey motors for several years after the EJ ceased being made. Secondly while it is a relatively easy transplant for any workshop or backyard mechanic to perform, the huge number of minor items which would require scheduling for mass production would make such a task a nightmare. GM-H would also need to issue service bulletins & amended parts catalogues to service these orphans. Since no such literature has every surfaced & no car with legitimate paperwork has been seen, I'm certain NO production Red-motored EJ exists.

[warrenm]

Anything is possible I spose but highly doubt it was tooled up as production line car.

Anybody see one? Any documentation?

Plenty of EJ were fitted with red motors years later, my uncle did one.
A cousin has an EH Prem that had power steering fitted (had the pump missing so the rest is sitting in his shed to be fitted again soon)

Warrenm does this EJ have balljoint or kingpin front end?

If it's balljoint it's likely just the usual HD/R conversion that's common for the last 40+ years.

But if it's the rocking horse poo magical red powered EJ then BUY IY NOW!!

I didn't see the car in person, another club member doing the rego check contacted me, but it does have disc brakes on the front, so I imagine it has ball joints, I don't know of a disc conversion for a kingpin front.

Dr Terry, I to am an avid fan of the HD, having owned both HD's & HR's, only ever seen one kingpin front end HD & it was an X2 that I robbed some parts from, the rest were balljoint fronts.

I've never fitted a red to an EJ, does the HD/HR balljoint front need any other mods than the front out rigger to fit an EJ?

Can the control arms from the HD/HR be attached to the EJ cross member? 

[Dr Terry]

I've never fitted a red to an EJ, does the HD/HR balljoint front need any other mods than the front out rigger to fit an EJ?

Can the control arms from the HD/HR be attached to the EJ cross member? 

Yes, the main mod required to fit a Red motor to any early Holden (apart from the outrigger) is that the HR side engine mount towers need to be moved around 3-inches rearward.

 

The control arm will fit but the wheel alignment won't be anywhere near correct & the top arm which need shims for adjustment are fixed.

 

Dr Terry

[warrenm]

Yes, the main mod required to fit a Red motor to any early Holden (apart from the outrigger) is that the HR side engine mount towers need to be moved around 3-inches rearward.

 

The control arm will fit but the wheel alignment won't be anywhere near correct & the top arm which need shims for adjustment are fixed.

 

Dr Terry

Thanks Dr Terry. I was pretty sure that it wasn't a straight forward swap, what your saying confirms my thoughts.

 

Thanks every else as well, it just helps drive the nail deeper.

Edited by warrenm, 18 March 2017 - 09:47 PM.

[rodomo]

Might be a mix up here but from my memory some EJ's had the full cast iron "grey" gearbox and some had an alloy bellhousing with the red gearbox attached.

 

I remember a thread about this...............................sorta

 

My dad a HD with balljoint front end, disc brakes and 186

[Dr Terry]

Might be a mix up here but from my memory some EJ's had the full cast iron "grey" gearbox and some had an alloy bellhousing with the red gearbox attached.

To my knowledge the the gearbox with the integral cast-iron bell housing finished with the EK.

 

All manual EJs got the EH-HK style gearbox with the separate alloy bell housing with the slave cylinder on the passenger side.

 

Dr Terry

[S pack]

Yes, the main mod required to fit a Red motor to any early Holden (apart from the outrigger) is that the HR side engine mount towers need to be moved around 3-inches rearward.

 

 

Dr Terry

I presume you are talking about using a HD/HR crossmember into early Holdens.

AFAIK using the EH crossmember to fit a red motor into an EJ is a straight swap no mods required. Obviously this does not provide the benefit of disc brakes.

Edited by S pack, 19 March 2017 - 08:59 AM.

[LJ RB30]

Yes he's talking bout the HD/R front end

[hanra]

I never knew there was so much difference between EJ and EH? I just thought it was the rear qtrs and tail lights....!

[Dr Terry]

I never knew there was so much difference between EJ and EH? I just thought it was the rear qtrs and tail lights....!

If you're only talking about the body it's a lot more than that. To my knowledge the only major external panels which were carried over from EJ to EH were the doors & the front guards. The turret panel (roof) is differently curved, so much so that the accessory sun visor attaching bracket was altered to suit. The sedan rear glass is totally different also. The bonnet & radiator support & front beaver were all changed.

 

As I said, the number of relatively minor changes make such a conversion a nightmare at a factory production level. Items often forgotten include the fact that the EJ ignition system runs a 12V coil, whereas the RED motor requires a ballast resistor in the harness. OK you say, just run the EH harness, but it's not that simple. The EJ has a different ignition switch to cater for the ballast & it also has an accessory position with the fusebox altered to suit. How far to you go ? I could go on, but so many things were altered from EJ to EH, there is no way that GM-H would bother producing such an orphan.

 

Dr Terry

I presume you are talking about using a HD/HR crossmember into early Holdens.

AFAIK using the EH crossmember to fit a red motor into an EJ is a straight swap no mods required. Obviously this does not provide the benefit of disc brakes.

Correct. I didn't word my answer very well.

 

Dr Terry

[rodomo]

I had an inquiry about an EJ station wagon, fitted with a "red motor"

I had a call about this same subject this morning.

[Shiney005]

No one can convince me that there was ever one built, apart from the development mules.

[henry57]

I agree with Shiney. There is absolutely no doubt that they built mules for testing, but I do not believe that any were built on the production line. To say they ran out of grey engines is just ridiculous. They had to keep building grey engines for several years after the EJ to supply demand for service, warranty etc. The only possibility is that a mule may have been registered and sold to a GMH employee after production of the EH.