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Leaking Extractor Woes


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#1 toryman76

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 12:06 PM

As the topic title suggests I am currently having all sorts of issues with my extractors leaking between the flange and the heads. At first I thought it was incorrect fitment which I only have myself to blame. So the plan was to redo the gaskets, using new ARP header bolts with a smaller 3/8" hex head on them so you can actually get to them properly to tighten them. Originally I had used standard bolts with a 9/16" hex head. Anyway so yesterday I pry them away from the head and noticed that the flanges weren't straight and was very noticeable especially around the areas which were leaking. So several hours later I now have the extractors out of the car and having a closer look today here is what I have found:

 

Driver Side

  • Port 3 leaking at top of flange. Measured 25thou with a straight edge
  • Port 5 leaking around bolt. Measured 19thou with a straight edge
  • Port 1 doesn't look far off from starting to leak at the top. Measure 19thou with a straight edge

 

Pass Side

  • Port 4 leaking top and bottom of flange. Measured 22thou at top
  • Port 6 leaking top and bottom of flange. Measured 19 thou at top
  • Between port 4 & 6 measured 19thou at bottom of flange
  • Bottom of port 8 measured 10thou
  • Bottom of port 2 measured 6thou

Am I being too pedantic? To me this seems like the flanges are way too warped to ever get them to seal properly. I would also like to mention that the car hasn't even hit the road yet... this is all from simply running it in and starting it every now and them.

 

I do not know the part number of the extractors as they were second hand, but they are Pacemakers as they have the ID tag on them. My set up is a 308 carby, aussie 4 speed with a HZ-WB style full cable clutch setup, HQ style engine mounts.

 

Now these extractors fitted ok once in the car but getting them out was not fun. If there is no way of salvaging these extractors what are some suggestions out there for the easiest to fit? I have done some reading on here and it seems that all of them have there pro's and con's but keen to get some thoughts.

 

Any help here guys will be hugely appreciated. My car still isn't on the road yet.. (12 year build) and mucking around with extractors before I even take it for a drive has really set me back.

 

Driver Side

Driver%20Side-3.jpg

 

Pass Side

Pass%20Side-10.jpg

 

Engine Side of Gaskets

Gasket%20Eng%20Side.jpg

 

Extractor Side of Gaskets

Gasket%20Extractor%20Side-2.jpg



#2 dattoman

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 12:11 PM

Get the extractors faced by an engine shop

Theres a few different types of gaskets you can get for these

If you can't find any copper ones look around for the Platinum gaskets in the thicker material (they do a 2mm and 4mm)

Shouldn't need it if faced right... but maybe a smear of red copper sealant too



#3 toryman76

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 12:24 PM

Facing them was something I had considered but couldn't picture how they would be able to hold them in the machine. If its been done before then I guess I just need to find someone who's capable. I have found two different types of gaskets; 1 to suit standard headers, 1 to suit extractors. Both permaseal brand. They certainly don't appear to be any different in thickness. Do you know where I can get copper gaskets or Platinum gaskets?



#4 rexy

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 01:32 PM

Just piss off the gaskets and use ultra copper silicone. Very forgiving of uneven gaps. Works every time.
Make sure your bolts are the correct length and not bottoming out...

#5 _Axewound_

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 01:36 PM

Heat from welding would of caused the flange to warp, especially with those cuts near the bolt holes.

Like above get it decked and should be good to go, here is a link to the copper gaskets.

http://m.ebay.com.au...216?_mwBanner=1

Edited by Axewound, 04 June 2017 - 01:37 PM.


#6 LJ RB30

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 01:39 PM

I bought Genie extractors for my 253 & was disgusted how warped the header plate was when I unpacked them!

I took them to a local bloke with a large linisher & we linished them flat!
Had done it also on the turbo manifold on the RB & only used copper sealant & no gasket.

Works a treat!

Definitely get yours linished !

#7 toryman76

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 04:25 PM

Thanks everyone for the responses. I will definitely get them faced and will definitely get the copper gaskets. Seems like this will be the best method of insurance.



#8 rodomo

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 05:47 PM

And retighten after initial warm up and cool down.



#9 Rockoz

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 06:56 PM

Had issues like that years ago.

Dont use the original metal type gaskets.

They are okay for cast manifolds but no good for extractors.

I always used the pinky coloured extractor gaskets usually without any need for additional sealant.

If particularly difficult ultra high temp silicone fixed any issues.

Never had to machine extractors.

Have seen doubled up extractor gaskets used though to cure a really bad set


Edited by Rockoz, 04 June 2017 - 06:57 PM.


#10 dattoman

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 07:31 PM

Sadly the pinky gaskets went out when asbestos was ruled out around 2003



#11 EunUCh

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 07:54 PM

Belt sander , straight edge ,measuring stick of some description  , trim em till flatish enough , bolt em up with a bit of silicone to head (just nipped up to hold them on) ,(not so much that it oozes all over the place) let it cure, tighten up then fire up then re-tighten ?

 

 

 



#12 toryman76

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 08:42 PM

Had issues like that years ago.
Dont use the original metal type gaskets.
They are okay for cast manifolds but no good for extractors.
I always used the pinky coloured extractor gaskets usually without any need for additional sealant.
If particularly difficult ultra high temp silicone fixed any issues.
Never had to machine extractors.
Have seen doubled up extractor gaskets used though to cure a really bad set


First set of extractors I ever fitted were to a 6cyl Torana and used one of those pink gaskets and it was brilliant. Didn't have any issues at all. I know they were asbestos but surely they came up with a suitable replacement? We have gaskets made at work for pressure components out of a similar material think it's called klingersil or something like that. No idea on it's fire retardant ability though.

#13 derrin71

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 08:45 PM

If you get them faced then definitely no gasket at all. Just some blue or gold silastic. Check the bolts after the first heat cycle then every oil change. Will never leak.



#14 toryman76

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 09:07 PM

Why no gasket at all after being faced? I really can't picture an exhaust manifold working with just gasket goo alone.

#15 dattoman

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 10:49 PM

Mate 2 flat metal surfaces together with a smear of goo and they should not leak

Since theres no real pressure against them



#16 Ando

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 07:27 AM

Also tighten the centre bolts first & work out towards the end bolts.



#17 toryman76

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 12:41 PM

I took the extractors down to a local exhaust shop (one who came highly recommended to me) and at first glance he thought they were ok, but closer inspection he has agreed with me that the flanges are quite bad. He said I can try and get them machined but then the flange thickness will be reduced (obviously) and this could cause further issues in the future. Looks like I'm up for a new set. Should I still try and use the copper gaskets with a new set of extractors?  



#18 toryman76

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:03 PM

For anyone else looking I have found Platinum gaskets can be bought from SCA. 1.5mm thick gasket is part number HSM9A. 3mm thick gasket is part number HSM9AT.



#19 TerrA LX

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:15 PM

And make sure you re tension them after a run.



#20 _Axewound_

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:26 PM

I took the extractors down to a local exhaust shop (one who came highly recommended to me) and at first glance he thought they were ok, but closer inspection he has agreed with me that the flanges are quite bad. He said I can try and get them machined but then the flange thickness will be reduced (obviously) and this could cause further issues in the future. Looks like I'm up for a new set. Should I still try and use the copper gaskets with a new set of extractors?

Cut the flange off and get new ones laser cut, preferably thicker then weld them on whilst bolted to a bench or dummy head making sure to avoid getting the headers too hot, let them cool between each runner...

#21 toryman76

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:40 PM

And retighten after initial warm up and cool down.

 

 

And make sure you re tension them after a run.

 

Re-tension whilst still hot? Or allow to cool then re-tighten? 



#22 toryman76

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 05:18 PM

Reading other threads on this it seems a nip up whilst hot is the way to go.

#23 TerrA LX

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 05:24 PM

Let it cool
Same with any engine bolt...



#24 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:44 PM

New ones likely wont be any better, exhaust shop guy is just trying to get a sale. 

Took me four hours of heat shrinking to get my last set of brand new extractors from a top brand somehwere tollerable. 

 

Cheers. 



#25 EunUCh

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 08:06 PM

Yep , let it cool before a re-nip , too bloody hot and burny trying to crank nuts up and getting blisters on knuckles and hands when things are hot?

The so called 'techincal' reason is that studs /bolts and other stuff expands when it gets hot even with just a smear of goo, this means that it will all compress a bit and will just need a nip up too take up the "slack" when cold after the expansion process has been done and probably just the periodic check now and again ?.....the dreaded carbon from the combustion process will fill what gaps are left ?..if any.

 

Edit,sometimes what can be done is what they call a relief , this involves using an angle grinder with a 1mm blade and cutting a perfect set of flange plates on a perfect set of extractors  , usually around the points of most stress , straight down the guts (or on an angle ) of a bolt hole and possibly even straight down the center of the flange plate so that they can walk about a bit when they get hot ?


Edited by EunUCh, 06 June 2017 - 08:23 PM.





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