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T56 magnum with Bremer shifter? Do i need Mal wood tail mod


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#1 horsepowerhowie

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:31 PM

Hey just needed some Help  ive decided to now run a manual T56 magnum behind a stock ls3 with this bremer sequential shifter https://www.bremershifters.com/ and it has an remote shift housing so i can run the shifter anywhere so just a few questions.

 

Does this mean i can now avoid the Mal wood tail mod due to postioning the shifter wherever?

 

Also with the magnum can i run a cable straight to original dash as it has the choice of mechanical outlet on box also?

 

And what gearbox/diff gearing should i look at for stock a ls3 18 inch rims?

 

IAny help would be great thanks Nathan.

 

 

 

 

 

 



#2 grumpy xu1

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 05:15 PM

The only thing i could advise you on is, in my cluby std ls1, t56, rip shifter, i have 3.73:1 & they're great, sit on roughly 1780 revs in 6th @ 103kph on a 235/40/18 factory tyre.

I have 3.90:1 in my cammed ls1 ss on 20's with a t56 probably sit on 1850 revs @ 103kph

Andrew will know more about the cable set up, i presume that you are going to tune the Ls3, I'd cam it while it was out, but that's just me.

#3 Bigfella237

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 06:18 PM

I was looking at those Bremer shifters and they look like a nice bit of kit... but the price... WOW!

 

With a synchro box you still have to depress the clutch anyway, which takes longer than actually moving the gear lever, although I did see an electric-over-hydraulic clutch master system somewhere in my travels that could be ECU-controlled, but that's another story.

 

There are only two gear sets available in the aftermarket T56 Magnum, a 2.97:1 first gear and a 2.66:1

 

Unless you were using a really tall diff gear (like a 2.60 A9X ratio) and needed the lower first gear to launch with, my money says you're much better off with the closer ratios of the latter version...

 

T56_Magnum_TUET11009.jpg

 

Note that the "TUET11009" is the GM version with the concentric throwout hydraulic clutch, I can't remember off-hand what part number the Ford version with the mechanical clutch is? Buggered if I know why they didn't just make it one-case-suits-all myself? Would've been a lot simpler.

 

There is also apparently a "Magnum XL" version with a much longer rear extension housing but I can't remember what clutch options were available, I think it only came in the Ford version (which suits your mechanical clutch setup anyway) when I was looking at them but they said GM version coming soon, so both may be available by now?

 

What size rear tyres are you running (the exact size not just the diameter)?

 

And what driveshaft?



#4 Bigfella237

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 06:34 PM

Ah shit, I just re-read your post... you were talking about the SPEEDO cable weren't you, not the clutch cable...

 

You can run a mechanical speedo cable off a T56 Magnum if you have a custom cable made, but I've never heard of whether you can buy interchangeable speedo gears to make it read correctly or not?

 

There are a few other solutions, even keeping the original speedo, such as a Cable-X which drives an old-school cable from an electronic speed sensor, and is of course fully adjustable...

 

cx3012w-cables.jpg



#5 neglectedtorana

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 07:13 PM

I have the Mal Wood extension housing and it has a cable output, Mal told me he has different gears to go in the box for correcting the speedo

If the Magnum has the same setup I would think you could correct the speedo, surely different gears are available in the States too

Regarding the other benefits the Mal Wood extension housing is shorter so does not require cutting and replacing the cross member under the floor, it is the long extension housing used in the Commodore that cause the clearance issue with the cross member, if the Magnum box is shorter it might fit

Think Big Kev has a Magnum box in his

#6 horsepowerhowie

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 08:08 PM

Thanks for the replies fellas as im a beater and need help with the mechanical side.

Grumpy- yeah im just going to have a stock crate ls3 with just stainless extractors and tune thats plenty for someone never having an 8 before.

Big fella- Yeah shifters pricy but second i saw it ditched the auto for manual setup.Im getting hydraulic mal wood clutch setup and Im hoping to avoid spending money on extension housing which cost over 2 grand. My rears are 285/35 and keen on custom cable as less stuff to hide.

Neglected- yeah ill talk to Mal again about the gears but hes adamant about needing the housing even though i said i didnt mind cutting floor.
Im trying to get an idea bout these boxes cause i might just get 1 from USA but font wanna stuff up and end up forking out more to suit or jave problems and cant send back. But ill check kevs page out ive seen a couple but not his.

#7 Oversteer

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:09 PM

The Malwood extension housing makes the box so much easier to fit, its the main structural floor cross base that needs to be cut using a std T56....a hard thing to re-instate.

 

A non cammed ls3 would work well with a 3.7 rear diff....cam it a little in it will like a 3.9.

 

The Bremer shifter is a bit of a novelty thing.....on a std syncro t56 it would not really make shifts quicker, and would result in dead syncros and more if you tried !

 

"Sequential" shifters like that have been around for a long time, and anyone who is proficient at shifting cogs will say they can do it faster on a normal H pattern ! ,you can see and hear in the vids that the shifter is not one action like a proper shift drum sequential dog box, and you will feel the multiple actions and friction as you push the stick...which makes it slow, add that to the fact it couldn't be used like a proper sequential dog box with no lift, no clutch etc.

 

I have a street driven vehicle with a Modena sequential dog box, set-up with ecu flat shift etc....its a frOcking magic thing when you want to got fast, less than .15sec shifts, just pull the stick at WOT, but driving in traffic with a sequential shifter has knobs on it, having to rack down thru gears when you want to go from 5th to 1st is time consuming and annoying...and i can just smash the dogs at any speed rapidly, the Bremer thing would be way slower and get old reeeeal fast.



#8 myss427

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:02 AM

Also you need the right angle speedo drive adapter from Mal to stop the cable running into the tunnel, very close around there.



#9 Bigfella237

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:32 AM

I've run the numbers with those specific tyre sizes for you Howie...  

 

Tyre size = 285/35R18

Tyre diameter = 657mm (25.85")

Tyre Revolutions = 484 per km  

 

I don't know what speedo cable drive/driven gears are available for a T56 Magnum, but I can give you a ratio between the output shaft and the cable for a standard Torana speedo for your tyre size with a range of diff ratios and you can work it out with the supplier from there:

 

Output shaft : cable

3.00:1 diff = 9:21 (reads 99.5 @ 100)

3.36:1 diff = 9:23 (reads 101.7 @ 100)

3.55:1 diff = 8:22 (reads 99.9 @ 100)

3.70:1 diff = 8:23 (reads 99.6 @ 100)

3.90:1 diff = 8:24 (reads 100.6 @ 100)

4.11:1 diff = 7:22 (reads 101.2 @ 100)

 

So for example, a 9 tooth drive gear with a 21 tooth driven gear. If you go with a diff ratio or tyre size other than any above just let me know and I can run that too?

 

Now the engine RPM at 100km/h for a selection of diff ratios in 6th gear, firstly for the TUET11012:

Gear Ratio = 0.50:1

Diff Ratio 2.60:1 = 1049 engine RPM @ 100km/h

Diff Ratio 2.78:1 = 1121 engine RPM @ 100km/h

Diff Ratio 3.08:1 = 1242 engine RPM @ 100km/h

Diff Ratio 3.36:1 = 1355 engine RPM @ 100km/h

Diff Ratio 3.55:1 = 1432 engine RPM @ 100km/h

Diff Ratio 3.70:1 = 1492 engine RPM @ 100km/h

Diff Ratio 3.90:1 = 1573 engine RPM @ 100km/h

Diff Ratio 4.11:1 = 1658 engine RPM @ 100km/h  

 

And for the TUET11009:

Gear Ratio = 0.63:1
Diff Ratio 2.60:1 = 1321 engine RPM @ 100km/h
Diff Ratio 2.78:1 = 1413 engine RPM @ 100km/h
Diff Ratio 3.08:1 = 1565 engine RPM @ 100km/h
Diff Ratio 3.36:1 = 1708 engine RPM @ 100km/h
Diff Ratio 3.55:1 = 1804 engine RPM @ 100km/h
Diff Ratio 3.70:1 = 1880 engine RPM @ 100km/h
Diff Ratio 3.90:1 = 1982 engine RPM @ 100km/h
Diff Ratio 4.11:1 = 2089 engine RPM @ 100km/h

 

Here's a couple of 'visual aids' with a 3.36:1 diff used for example (the speeds will obviously change for other diff ratios) and a shift point of 5000 rpm, firstly for the TUET11012:

Howie_11012.jpg  

 

Compared to the same shift points for the close ratio TUET11009:

Howie_11009.jpg  

 

You can clearly see (looking at the lower graph on each picture above) that the closer ratio gear set of the TUET11009 has a much nicer "even" spacing. 2nd gear is almost "optional" in the TUET11012.

 

And finally, driveshaft RPM @ 120km/h (cruising speed for ½ critical RPM):

Diff Ratio 2.60:1 = 2517 driveshaft RPM @ 120km/h
Diff Ratio 2.78:1 = 2691 driveshaft RPM @ 120km/h
Diff Ratio 3.08:1 = 2981 driveshaft RPM @ 120km/h
Diff Ratio 3.36:1 = 3252 driveshaft RPM @ 120km/h
Diff Ratio 3.55:1 = 3436 driveshaft RPM @ 120km/h
Diff Ratio 3.70:1 = 3582 driveshaft RPM @ 120km/h
Diff Ratio 3.90:1 = 3775 driveshaft RPM @ 120km/h
Diff Ratio 4.11:1 = 3978 driveshaft RPM @ 120km/h

 

And again @ 240km/h (theoretical top speed for critical RPM):

Diff Ratio 2.60:1 = 5034 driveshaft RPM @ 240km/h
Diff Ratio 2.78:1 = 5382 driveshaft RPM @ 240km/h
Diff Ratio 3.08:1 = 5963 driveshaft RPM @ 240km/h
Diff Ratio 3.36:1 = 6505 driveshaft RPM @ 240km/h
Diff Ratio 3.55:1 = 6873 driveshaft RPM @ 240km/h
Diff Ratio 3.70:1 = 7163 driveshaft RPM @ 240km/h
Diff Ratio 3.90:1 = 7550 driveshaft RPM @ 240km/h
Diff Ratio 4.11:1 = 7957 driveshaft RPM @ 240km/h

 

You need to know the critical speed for your exact driveshaft and stay below it, you also want to avoid sitting around ½ of that critical speed under normal driving conditions so you don't have excessive driveline vibrations.

 

Driveshaft critical speed is the speed at which the harmonics meet the natural resonance and the shaft shakes itself to pieces. Critical speed is determined by the length and diameter of the driveshaft, as well as it's rotating mass. The shorter the shaft, the higher the critical speed. Same goes for the diameter, bigger is better. And light-weight materials such as carbon fibre make a big difference too (although there are other considerations with that option too).

 

You really need to crunch the numbers on the particular driveshaft that you'll be using but as an example, a standard 5.0L V8 Torana driveshaft (2.75" dia, 49.95" long, 1310 unis) would have a critical speed of 7192rpm and a ½ true critical speed would be 3589rpm.

 

If this was the driveshaft you're going to use, you can see from the info above that you couldn't really go lower than a 3.70 diff gear, but again, with a T56 your driveshaft will likely be shorter and so will have a higher critical speed.



#10 neglectedtorana

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:46 PM

myss427 is right about the speedo cable clearance too, I had forgotten about that.

I have a right angle adapter on mine I got from Mal
The speedo cable is not very neat avoiding the tunnel but it works

#11 horsepowerhowie

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:59 AM

Wow thanks heaps big fella really appreciate the help alot.






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