28 replies to this topic

[nzxu1]

Does anyone have any experience on one of these  j-zed engines  ? 

 

 

https://www.ebay.com...lkAAOSwHnFVycXD

 

 

SUB 10 SEC 1/4 MILE TIMES  is a  pretty bold claim   and for the parts included in the build plus time to build it     that seems like  excellent value indeed  .

[greens nice]

I'd recomend you do some research on moe engines / zop454 / brian cassar first before buying anything.

Capable yes, but never seen a n/a 'jzed' in a sedan run faster high 11's/ bottom 12's, plenty of duggans have.

Edited by greens nice, 17 December 2017 - 10:46 AM.

[nzxu1]

There is an LJ in Street Machine that had one of these heads and put out over 400 HP. However, the magazine article never had any quarter times. There is another bloke who builds red motors with JZeds and they also claim over 400 HP. I can dig out some info if you want. There are some others around as well. 

Regards 

 

 

Some more info would be great thanks Jon  

[gtrboyy]

Where are these 10sec n/a torries????

 

Orange lj that had jz top end on it now has ls2...

[orangeLJ]

Pretty sure that black LJ with a Holden six is the fastest full body Torana six cylinder.

It's running into the 9s or close from memory.

And it's got a Holden (or atleast a highly modified standard style) head on it.

[gtrboyy]

Meant by the way that ebay ad is worded you'd expect them to show some customer cars in the 10's or 11's & even so you'd want to drive it on street if spending 15k on a long block.

 

That black lj is fairly wild even for 6cyl race car.

[LC-GTR-1969]

Brian from Moe engines has a hit and miss reputation... A fair number of people complain that he takes a really long time to get the product out to them and I think some have complained over small things, like the quality of the paint used on the block etc.. A few blokes have said that they've had to take hium to court to get there money back cause they got sick of waiting...

 

In Brians defence, a few years ago I contacted him about putting together a short block for me and the first thing he said was it would take 6 months or more as he is snowed under with work... So he was honest with me up front that it would take a long time for the turnaround. Although I guess when money is in your hand some might agree to the delay in build at first but then crack it after 6 months and they have nothing for their dough- I imagine it would be frustrating but if you've been told it will take a long time at least they've been honest.

 

But from what I have read, he is a very knowledgable engine builder. 

 

I was extremely impressed with the ZJED engine build from about 12 months ago... He cracked 420 odd hp from memory at the fly, and at a relatively low rpm, like 6200rpm. I inquired about this and it was admittedly run on MS109 oxygenated race fuel but from memory the same rig made about 390hp on pump 98. This was through 48mm webers from memory. 

 

Tried to attach a pic of the dyno sheet but the uploader isn't working and photobucket can get plucked.

Edited by LC-GTR-1969, 19 December 2017 - 07:21 AM.

[LC-GTR-1969]

I converted the file and seems to work now..

 

 

Attached Files

•  moe.jpg   50.05K   15 downloads

[gtrboyy]

Yeah the black lj used to be white youtube car.

 

Just think that if advertised 10sec engine is going to cost easy 20k then add driveline you'd want to see actual proof it can do it & also hope could drive it on street occasionally.

[LC-GTR-1969]

I think any JZED/ Duggan headed 202 that has a reasonable cam/ carb/ exhaust package should be good for low 12s /high 11s in a small torry. It would take a fair bit of refinement to crack 10s but at 400hp its within possibilities with a very good setup and light car etc..

 

In regards to cost, whether its a 308 or a 202 its gonna take money to get it moving well. It would obviously cost a fair bit less to crack 400hp in a 308 but it will still take some money. Also, the various extra costs and engineering costs for the conversion adds up as well- so I reckon a 308 conversion with a good 400hp engine would cost around 15k by the time you get all the gear and get it engineered. All in all, I think 15k for a 370 plus hp 202 engine is actually not that expensive, as long as the motor stays together. I know quite a few blokes who have spent near 10k on their 202 for a 250hp setup, which in some way puts things in perspective I guess.

 

But at the end of the day, the way I see it is if my only prerogative was to go fast, I would buy an old rexy or s14 and pump up the boost on E85 for easy 12s. But its not just going fast that is the attraction, its getting something to go fast that really isn't designed to be fast.

[nzxu1]

In regards to cost, whether its a 308 or a 202 its gonna take money to get it moving well. It would obviously cost a fair bit less to crack 400hp in a 308 but it will still take some money. Also, the various extra costs and engineering costs for the conversion adds up as well- so I reckon a 308 conversion with a good 400hp engine would cost around 15k by the time you get all the gear and get it engineered. All in all, I think 15k for a 370 plus hp 202 engine is actually not that expensive, as long as the motor stays together. I know quite a few blokes who have spent near 10k on their 202 for a 250hp setup, which in some way puts things in perspective I guess.

 

l quite agree that  370 hp from  202  is very  good value indeed for  approx 16 k  and that's the reason l asked  the question .

 

   l bought 202  engine bits over  various trips l did to Australia over a number of years , including a 2nd hand Duggan head , new tighe roller  cam and roller lifters   and other bits n pieces , plus dry sump setup here in  NZ  and had some else build it for me as well. It puts out  approx  350  hp and that cost me well over  25k plus ( l gave up counting )  l already had the 48 webers .

[ChrisLC]

Check this out, www.hi-tec-engines.com.au. claims 450 HP from a 202 and the JZed.

regards 

Warning Will Robinson, warning. Lots of claims and promises from that source.

[madtoranajzedded]

Hmmm.reading that makes me want to get rid
of my red head and go the zed.id settle for
340-350hp out of 186 bore...im not greedy ☺

[nzxu1]

Check this out, www.hi-tec-engines.com.au. claims 450 HP from a 202 and the JZed.

 

 

What an interesting web site ,  450 horsepower   6 cylinder  ...........all l can say is wow  !

 

 

Circuit racer that l've competed against here  has a  duggan head and  runs  55mmm webers  and it must have well over  400 hp going by how he can pull away from me on a straight .

Edited by nzxu1, 20 December 2017 - 06:34 AM.

[LC-GTR-1969]

If you can get your hands on Street Machine Oct 2017, p. 92. This orange LJ used the JZED and 45mm Dellorto's. I get the impression that the owner was not happy with his power output, as he had Vince Macri (NC touring car racer) do some more development on the JZED engine. They changed to a solid roller cam, 50 mm Webers and 1/7,8th headers and came up with 412 HP.

 

A 350 to 400hp 202 would be a hoot, but I can see how some might actually be disappointed. The high figure sounds great and so forth, but such and engine will still feel like a six at the end of the day due to the lack of low end torque. This wouldnt bother some but it would bother quite a few.. .if you're use to V8 torque and linear power bands, one could be mistaken to compare a 400hp 202 to a 400hp V8 and think they would go the same- but in reality, the V8 will always feel quicker due to the better spread of power. 

 

That being said- you would have to treat a 400hp six for what it is... a break of the mould agricultural engine on the cutting edge of development, that would be quite quick in a light car like an LC or LJ, and would still be sticking to its roots- old school and plenty cool. 

 

If you just want to fry the tyres just put in an LS and be done with it (not for me though- love the 6!)

Edited by LC-GTR-1969, 20 December 2017 - 07:40 AM.

[LC-GTR-1969]

Check this out, www.hi-tec-engines.com.au. claims 450 HP from a 202 and the JZed.

 

 

What an interesting web site ,  450 horsepower   6 cylinder  ...........all l can say is wow  !

I've spoken to this fella about these power figures.. He claims high figures but I suspect he hasn't dynoed them (I could be wrong though)... He was telling me that he builds 350hp 9 ports engines- after a bit more lengthy discussion as to how, i realised he was referring to hp flow potential, which is quite different to actual hp (obviously).

 

He probably flowed a JZED to 450hp after he ported it but this in no way means it actually made 450hp. Stick a drain pipe on the block and it will flow 800hp but thats not how it works.

Edited by LC-GTR-1969, 20 December 2017 - 07:31 AM.

[ChrisLC]

I've spoken to this fella about these power figures.. He claims high figures but I suspect he hasn't dynoed them (I could be wrong though)... He was telling me that he builds 350hp 9 ports engines- after a bit more lengthy discussion as to how, i realised he was referring to hp flow potential, which is quite different to actual hp (obviously).

 

He probably flowed a JZED to 450hp after he ported it but this in no way means it actually made 450hp. Stick a drain pipe on the block and it will flow 800hp but thats not how it works.

I gave him my engine back in April this year. I got back ZERO horsepower back over four months later. Sorry to say, I would not believe anything on that web site. A very unpleasant experience. One of those where you know you are being told lies but have to bite your tongue and be a nice guy, in this case so I could get my stuff back (in pieces).

[jd lj]

The way I see it is that yes these heads flow very well and are capable of producing high hp figures at high rpm's and to do so they need large carbs. On a street car though how often are you driving around at 6000 rpm's to take advantage of this?
I suspect that since the volume of air being drawn into the cylinder is still the same as with any other 202 that the air speed at lower rpm's when using such a high flowing head and 48mm + webers with who knows what size chokes would be quite low and due to this the low end performance would suffer. It's just my opinion but low rpm's torque is what you'll benefit from more on the average street car. Has anyone driven one of these big hp jzed engines themselves or is the joy just in looking at maximum hp figures on the dyno.

As an example my good old 9 port (with a 12 port conversion) is more than capable of flowing enough to support 45dcoe webers with 40mm + chokes, probably even 48dcoe's with 42mm + chokes and make good power figures at high rpm's but if I set up the carbs to do this then real world drivability suffers, it's great above 3000rpm's but just don't expect much below that because the air speed is simply to low. Then I can go fit smaller chokes and tune it accordingly and it turns into a completely different beast from idle all the way to redline. The redline might not be as high and therefore the maximum hp not as high but it's far more enjoyable to drive.

[LC-GTR-1969]

The way I see it is that yes these heads flow very well and are capable of producing high hp figures at high rpm's and to do so they need large carbs. On a street car though how often are you driving around at 6000 rpm's to take advantage of this?
I suspect that since the volume of air being drawn into the cylinder is still the same as with any other 202 that the air speed at lower rpm's when using such a high flowing head and 48mm + webers with who knows what size chokes would be quite low and due to this the low end performance would suffer. It's just my opinion but low rpm's torque is what you'll benefit from more on the average street car. Has anyone driven one of these big hp jzed engines themselves or is the joy just in looking at maximum hp figures on the dyno.

As an example my good old 9 port (with a 12 port conversion) is more than capable of flowing enough to support 45dcoe webers with 40mm + chokes, probably even 48dcoe's with 42mm + chokes and make good power figures at high rpm's but if I set up the carbs to do this then real world drivability suffers, it's great above 3000rpm's but just don't expect much below that because the air speed is simply to low. Then I can go fit smaller chokes and tune it accordingly and it turns into a completely different beast from idle all the way to redline. The redline might not be as high and therefore the maximum hp not as high but it's far more enjoyable to drive.

 

The JZED does have big ports and when running bg carbs like 50mm carbs yes the bottom end will obviously suffer to a degree- but there are also irving heads that flow nearly as much, but will produce outstanding low to middle torque due to the small but very low turbulence ports. 

 

Its more complicated than just choke area- the choke area is just the end of the drain pipe- but you need to consider the full drain pipe from gutter to spout (or valve to bell mouth). 

 

9 ports and 12 port heads are inefficient in design- hence when ported they are slow ports- especially 9 ports... the air moves slowly, which means we see benefit from speeding up the port speed (ie smaller chokes when running webers or dellortos).

 

If you have a more efficient port speed, such as with an irving- it will both move air faster and flow greater CFM than a traditional 9 or 12 port head- so 48mm webers with 40 or 42mm chokes are a very good thing on an irving style head.

 

Granted, JZEDs are not going to move air as fast at lower rpms- but as you can see in the above dyno sheet, with a well designed engine you can work around to at least a little. That JZED engine makes the the same hp as my peak hp for my 9 port (255hp), but only makes it at 3400rpm rather than my 6200rpm. My engine made around 160hp at 3400rpm- BUT thats WOT, part throttle transitions will always prefer smaller carbs/ chokes, but if you use a good compression to cam ratio (dynamic compression) and aggressive cam timing (ie locked dizzy or minimal curve in dizzy like 10 degrees)- you will find you can crutch the part throttle transitions. Or, you can use constant velocity carbs and get some response back that way. There are several ways to skin a cat. Motorbikes run big 45 degree ports and very long duration cams by using CV carbs, just as an example.

 

The other point to make is that the CFM restricted heads like our 9 ports and 12 ports really benefit from extra duration to give the air more time to fill the cylinders- hence, we already have soggy bottom ends due to the fact that we are running long cams like more than 260@50". These cams are great from 4000rpm and up but are very soggy below. With a better flowing head, like irving, duggan/ JZED- there is less need to run such crazy duration and you could run 250@50 or 254@50 which helps give some drivability back.

 

Everything is a trade off, and yes, most JZED headed engines will not really be great street engines- but then the people who are going to pay 5k for a head are generally not looking for gentle street engines- they want performance most likely. In all honesty a moderate sized cam (like 238@50 or 240@50) in a YT 9/12 port with SUs will be ideal for the street and regular driver, but it also wont really be all that exhilarating and also wont make much more than an XU1. 

Edited by LC-GTR-1969, 21 December 2017 - 11:19 AM.