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Yella Terra Roller Rocker Fitment 304


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#1 toryman76

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 11:46 AM

I am having some minor teething woes with my freshly rebuilt 304. Its making a valve train ticking noise and after replacing lifters and checking everything else I am convinced the noise is coming from the fact that it has original pressed steel rockers and bridges which may be too worn as well as pushing the limits of there intended use by Holden. Therefore I am looking at trying to fit a set of adjustable Yella Terra roller rockers which are apparently just a bolt on job, P/N: ST2033. Now before I bolt them on, I want to check a few things like spring coil bind and pushrod length to make sure I achieve correct rocker geometry. I am pretty comfortable with how to go about getting the right pushrod length (install checker spring, use adjustable pushrod etc) but I am after some guidance on spring coil bind. 

 

My engine specs are as follows:

Holden 304 V8

Crane hydraulic camshaft, H286 with an advertised lift of 0.496" for both intake and exhaust at 1.6 rocker ratio. Recommended valve spring is part number 99848-16

Original cast iron heads (unsure on if they are pre or post pollution but I don't think this will make a difference)

Valve springs fitted are W1682-16 which I think are the same as the recommended part number 99848-16. Can anyone confirm this?

 

 

Valve spring part number 99848-16 has the following advertised characteristics:

Seat pressure 114lbs @ 1.7"

Open pressure 340lbs @ 1.2"

Spring coil bind occurs @ 1.153" therefore maximum allowable valve lift = 1.7 - 1.153 - 0.06 = 0.487"

 

So am I right in doing the following calculation for what the new valve lift would become with the YT RR:

Base cam lift = 0.496 / 1.6 = 0.31"

New valve lift = 0.31 x 1.65 = 0.512" which is greater than the maximum allowable valve lift for this spring

 

My question, is this approach correct? If so, what do I need to replace to get back into a safe operating range of the spring? Can I simply use a +0.05" retainer, effectively increasing the installed height of the spring? Or will this effect the spring seat pressure too much and cause other issues?

 

Anyones help on this one would be greatly appreciated  :D

 

 

 

 



#2 TerrA LX

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 11:57 AM

A higher retainer will reduce seated and max lift spring pressure. It will NOT change the installed height of the valve tip, hope you get that...
 



Why not bang one on and wind it over and visually check if you have coil bind or any other interference's?


Edited by TerrA LX, 28 March 2018 - 11:59 AM.


#3 TerrA LX

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 12:02 PM

A paper clip (the thick old kind, 040") is a good reference for clearance on coil bind



#4 toryman76

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 01:25 PM

A higher retainer will reduce seated and max lift spring pressure. It will NOT change the installed height of the valve tip, hope you get that...
 



Why not bang one on and wind it over and visually check if you have coil bind or any other interference's?

 

Yes this makes sense if I wanted to try and retain an equivalent valve lift yeah? I was thinking the only main concern with the larger ratio would be spring coil bind, but then again I should also check with the engine builder than there would not be any valve to piston interference.

 

 

A paper clip (the thick old kind, 040") is a good reference for clearance on coil bind

 

I was sort of hoping that there may be an easier way to visually check, and this sounds good to me! However would if give me an accurate indication given I have hydraulic lifters? 



#5 TerrA LX

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 06:55 AM

Yes, I doubt you will have much problems with the small increase of lift, but check with your builder...



#6 _sbc57lx_

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 06:59 AM

Can you take you car to your engine builder -  let them listen for ticking noise,  they may be able to diagnose what the  noise is.

I don't think a new set of rockers is the answer.   



#7 Bigfella237

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 08:24 AM

Agreed with Paul, diagnose the problem properly before you start throwing money away.

You can run the motor at idle with the valve covers off (suggest doing one side at a time), makes a bit of a mess but it will be very easy to feel which rocker(s) (if any) are tapping.

If one of the alloy rocker bridges is worn or broken you can simply swap it out (I've got dozens of them kicking around, as many people here would), or if you're desperate you can file the bottom of them down so they clamp the rocker tighter, but that's a PITA cause then you've got to keep that bridge in the same spot and orientation, easier just to swap it for a less worn one.
 



#8 TerrA LX

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 10:11 AM

Worn stock rockers...(ON A NEW MOTOR???)  500' lift, frOckem off


Edited by TerrA LX, 29 March 2018 - 10:12 AM.


#9 toryman76

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 10:29 AM

My engine builder has been supporting me throughout the process, helped me replace lifters, offered advice on what it could potentially be. Long story short... that has pretty much come to an end and I am now on my own. I guess this is why I am now looking to the forum for advice, possibly something I should have done to begin with, but I guess that's all about living and learning.

 

 

Worn stock rockers...(ON A NEW MOTOR???)  500' lift, frOckem off

 

After doing lots of reading and research myself (after then engine was built and run in) I agree with this. I know it will be an outlay of money but I am sick of mucking around with old and potentially worn components on a fresh engine that is practically brand new every where else.



#10 TerrA LX

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 10:57 AM

Pitty you not local, I would have a look for you, but seriously, if the rockers and bridges are worn, just buy new ones...



#11 _sbc57lx_

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 12:29 PM

As Bigfella suggests,    run engine with out rocker covers -  it's not that messy as long one  give it a big rev, ( the on looker friend with NFI )

even before running your engine  you may be able to feel for slackness between rockers & top of valves

( valves must be in closes positions )      all a leaning process -        I still don't think it will be rockers - unless there is now a miss match of parts.



#12 _sbc57lx_

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 02:35 PM

More ideas on this one,     Has the oil pump been primed ,  so oil is reaching the top end &  filling the lifters - if not , that can be why is sounds like valve train noise. 



#13 toryman76

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 03:02 PM

Oil pump was packed when engine was run in. Oil pressure come up straight away. I have since replaced oil and filter. I filled the filter before fitting it. Oil pressure come up straight away when I started it again. Even though I have OP could this scenario you describe still occur? Plenty of oil on top of the lifters when I last took the covers off. I have not run it with the covers off yet though.

#14 _2ELCS_

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 06:00 PM

I think the last line of your post might just hold the secret to your problem ? Run it with the tappet covers off before getting to technical ?

#15 toryman76

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 06:28 PM

I think the last line of your post might just hold the secret to your problem ?Run it with the tappet covers off before getting to technical ?


I do have a tendency to over think things... This is on the to do list first up tomorrow.

#16 Redslur

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 08:22 PM

I am no engine expert, but I would never run standard rockers on a cam with .500" lift.  I have used the Crane 286 cam and you really need at least bolt on roller rockers. Cam and springs should always be purchased as a matching set. 

 

I would assume your engine builder arranged this so my thoughts are with the rockers not being up to scratch. Standard rockers will give you a 1.6 ratio where as roller rockers are 1.65 ratio. From memory don't think you need longer pushrods for a 286 cam.  Could be wrong though.



#17 ozyozyozy

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 10:50 PM

Calculations aside.
A problem i see is, changing the cam to more lift, this generally reduces your base circle size.
Now if using standard rockers this WILL change your lifter preload on a hydraulic lifter cam.
The only way to adjust for this is by either grinding or shimming the bridge where it is bolted to the head.
If this hasnt been done, this could possibly be the source of the noise as the preload is incorrect.

Using a roller rocker(stick to standard holden ratio) you can adjust preload on each lifter just by the adjusting screw.
If fitting rollers you will still need to check the geometry which is easy, bolt a rocker on use bearing blue on valve tip, rotate it over.

As i havent heard the noise, this is spit balling from info given.

#18 toryman76

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 06:56 PM

Cam and springs were bought as a set from the same supplier and were matching. Yes my engine builder arranged the combo and he thought standard rocker gear would be fine. Lifter preload was checked and 20thou shims were used under the rocker bridges. I checked this again today on cylinder one exhaust and measured 50thou preload. For reference sake I through a 40thou shim in and preload was 30thou. I decided to stick with the 20thou shims that were already in there.

I think I've isolated the noise to the driver side so today I ran the car with the cover off. Not happy about getting oil all over my brand new engine bay and exhaust but it had to be done. I tried to video it and look at the same time but the video didn't come out too well. My observations were that all rockers appeared to be lifting about the same amount but on cyl 7 I could not really see the rods spinning. Gave it a quick rev and no different so I tried to spin them by hand as it was running and one felt quite tight. I stopped the engine and took it off to find what I think is a very slightly bent push rod. Now what I also found which I think is the most concerning part... Metallic gliter sitting in the oil on the heads near the oil gallery at the front. I checked it was metallic using a magnet. Again I am even more convinced that the rockers are not up to the task and they are chewing then selves out but now I'm real concerned that this metal has come from elsewhere... Am I over thinking?

I wish I could upload photos but photobucket is no longer free...

Thanks to everyone who has helped me so far. I really appreciate the support of everyone here.

#19 Bigfella237

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 07:04 PM

You can upload photos direct to the forum if they're not too big, go into "More Reply Options" below and "Attach Files"



#20 Redslur

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 07:08 PM

Roller rockers are the go :-)



#21 ozyozyozy

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 08:06 PM

A little metal "glitter" at the top end of motor is not uncommon, the springs againest seats will do that on there own.
When you start playing with aftermarket cams i think rollers are a must, the standard bridges are just a pain in the arse to get right.

#22 toryman76

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 06:46 AM

My photos were high quality so I tried to resize them so I could upload them here. Lets see how this goes. One is of the stuff I could pick up on the magnet the other is from me picking it up with my finger and smearing it on a piece of paper.

Attached Files



#23 S pack

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 08:45 AM

Cam and springs were bought as a set from the same supplier and were matching. Yes my engine builder arranged the combo and he thought standard rocker gear would be fine. Lifter preload was checked and 20thou shims were used under the rocker bridges. I checked this again today on cylinder one exhaust and measured 50thou preload. For reference sake I through a 40thou shim in and preload was 30thou. I decided to stick with the 20thou shims that were already in there.

I think I've isolated the noise to the driver side so today I ran the car with the cover off. Not happy about getting oil all over my brand new engine bay and exhaust but it had to be done. I tried to video it and look at the same time but the video didn't come out too well. My observations were that all rockers appeared to be lifting about the same amount but on cyl 7 I could not really see the rods spinning. Gave it a quick rev and no different so I tried to spin them by hand as it was running and one felt quite tight. I stopped the engine and took it off to find what I think is a very slightly bent push rod. Now what I also found which I think is the most concerning part... Metallic gliter sitting in the oil on the heads near the oil gallery at the front. I checked it was metallic using a magnet. Again I am even more convinced that the rockers are not up to the task and they are chewing then selves out but now I'm real concerned that this metal has come from elsewhere... Am I over thinking?

I wish I could upload photos but photobucket is no longer free...

Thanks to everyone who has helped me so far. I really appreciate the support of everyone here.

Take out the pushrod from #7 that you suspect is bent and roll it over a flat surface, a sheet of glass is perfect for the job. If the pushrod is found to be straight and it still won't spin when reinstalled and running the engine then you may have an issue with that cam lobe or lifter.  Basically the cam lobes on a flat tappet camshaft are ground so as to cause the lifters and subsequently the pushrods to spin during operation.

 

I'd be investigating further to find where that metal debris is coming from.


Edited by S pack, 31 March 2018 - 08:52 AM.


#24 toryman76

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 11:50 AM

I did roll it over a 900mm long level (straight edge) this was the straightest thing I could find at the time and I saw daylight come through as I rolled it around. Not much but probably about 0.5mm or less. I think a sheet of glass would work much better.

I will continue to investigate.

Edited by toryman76, 31 March 2018 - 11:52 AM.


#25 ozyozyozy

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 06:05 PM

Agree with the glass.
Yeah that seems a little too much metal, 1/4 to a 1/3 of that would not be unusual.




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