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#1 _MiddaSamid_

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:15 AM

Hi there, I'm sourcing a 308 for my LH project and am looking for some insight into the 308 and any related issues to help me choose the right powerplant..

 

Obviously gearbox selection plays a role.. I need to choose between a trimatic or turbo pattern block. Gearbox selection will be addressed in another thread but I'm ultimately planning a manual. Were there any other changes apart from the bellhousing stud pattern that I need to consider? Bottom end strengthening?? oiling issues and factory changes? head flow design? cooling issues?

 

What are the differences between red and blue? is one a better choice over another? and how do I identify them? (and before you give me some sh!t  :D apart from the colour).. did both red and blue blocks come with both bellhousing patterns?

 

Are there potential registration issues with later model blocks? ie, is it better to have a period motor in an LH?

 

Basically I don't want to go and build the perfect powerplant and gearbox ensemble to find that the vicroads crowd don't like it.. or that it's going to have a short life when I step on the go pedal..

 

Thanks in advance..

 



#2 Redslur

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:20 PM

Go for a QT or 11QT prefix block. A 300hp 308 is easily achievable and can be made very reliable to last semi racing applications. Mild port HQ heads with a Crane 286 cam, performer manifold and 650 Holley will do the trick.  Throw in a set of mains studs and balance your assembly. Stick with a JP low volume oil pump and you should be fine.  Just clean the valley oil return holes up before you start your rebuild. The engine will go all day and put a smile on your dial. You just need to decide you box options before starting as it may be dictated by the bellhousing bolt pattern.



#3 _MiddaSamid_

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 01:37 PM

Thanks Redslur.. that makes the selection easier.. so HQ-HZ red motor.. just need to work out turbo or tri....

 

I'll be interested to hear if anyone else has differing opinions..

 

It seems the reds have the better heads for stock stroke motor too. I'm unsure about porting.. I'll cross that bridge when the time comes.. need a bottom end first.

 

Balancing is a no brainer. Since balancing an in-line 4 Alfa engine about 15yrs ago (after a couple basic rebuilds) it's just par for any engine build now.. regardless of performance level.

 

Thanks for the tips on cam and intake mani.. I'm definitely not interested in reinventing the wheel..



#4 Bigfella237

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 03:56 PM

It depends on how fussy the inspector is, if they're up on checking cast dates then you will want a block that pre-dates your car so there's no problem with pollution requirements, but most wouldn't know a red motor from a blue these days anyway.

 

If you're going with an Aussie 4 speed gearbox then you definitely want an Aussie bolt pattern block, OTOH if you're planning on using a T5 then you're better off with a Chev bolt pattern block. Any other box requiring an adapter bellhousing obviously doesn't matter either way.

 

A good combo is an early block with later (VN-onward) heads / cam / intake since a head-swap doesn't incur the wrath of the EPA and the head design is significantly better, pollution gear is based on the engine not the heads (shows how much they know) and carby manifolds should still be readily available.

 

I'd never build an engine without having it balanced, for the cost it's a no-brainer!

 

As above, the biggest problem Holden V8's suffer is oiling issues. If you use a high volume oil pump the drive shafts tend to snap the two little prongs off (don't ask me how I know :furious: ), I've had new shafts machined up out of better materials and they seem to survive okay though, again for the small cost involved it's not worth not doing.

 

Also have a look around Youtube for oiling mods on a Holden V8. There's two main areas, getting the oil back out of the heads as Gerry mentioned, and re-working the oil feed system around the camshaft journals.

 

There are a couple of different ways to tackle that, some people tap into the main oil gallery under the intake and run an extra feed line to the rear of the second gallery, or you can machine an annulus into the front cam journal and drill a new feed that achieves the same result.

 

All depends what you plan on using it for of course, normal everyday street driving probably doesn't need anything better than the stock setup? But sustained high RPM usage is another story.

 



#5 CI 0308

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 06:59 PM

Yep I am going down the exact same path that Gerry and Andrew have mentioned a QT chev pattern block build date 2 months before my cars build date, oil mods as mentioned here  and sticking with pre emmission HQ heads with L34 style valves and pocket port as I want it to look stock from the outside. A9L conrods, flat top pistons, zero deck, 286 cam, roll master timing set and roller rockers that will fit under standard rocker covers. Blue motor electronic distributor with small cap conversion and overhauled quadrajet carby. That will bolt up to my existing steel T10 gearbox and dellow bell housing. good for 300hp and every day cruising.



#6 _MiddaSamid_

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 12:33 PM

This 286 cam that gets spoken of.. Brett you are talking of using your engine in front of a manual.. are there some hp/torque curves available for this cam? Will it generate drive off idle for slow traffic starts or will you be burning clutches trying to get the thing to roll?

 

I've been in a few 308 auto's with hi stalls which leads me to believe many available cams for 308's require the drive to engage much later in the rev range.. I could imagine bolting a manual box to an engine that typically requires a 5000 hi stall in auto format will be a pig to get moving as a manual..

 

Cam selection for a v8 is a new thing for me and surely enough people have tried enough cams to iron out the whole "buy it and try it" approach to getting your beast to drive the way you want it to.. Sure, for flat circuit race applications you can afford a high RPM set off because you only set off once in any race, but for a multi use vehicle, a compromise must be found..

 

Angry cam and lightened fly makes for difficult starts and a screaming top end.. soft cam and heavy fly makes for granny's supermarket trolley.. where is the middle ground?

 

which cam with which lightened fly gives a fair compromise between acceptably clutchy starts and a grinning top end? I want to feel my torque through the middle and be laughing hysterically at the limiter when I'm grabbing the next cog.. I think I just saw my Muncie quivering in fear :o.. I guess what I'm after is a torque to hp compromise.. broad torque and strong hp.. keep in mind I'm not planning increasing the valve diametres.. yet. so my pre pollution heads will likely be a flow limiter..

 

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of mild to wild 308 manual cars out there.. Come on people.. what cam and fly do you have with what head mods and how does the car behave? what real world HP and torque figures are you seeing and where on the curve? 

 

If you haven't read in my other thread, I have found my earlyish QT trimatic pattern motor. Collection was delayed but I should have it next Monday.. I am talking to a guy about A9L rods, and it'll get a set of flat tops and a balancing job.. need a flywheel first.



what's a pocket port?



#7 Rockoz

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 12:50 PM

Canshaft oiling has always been an issue.

Cant count the  number of Holden V8 cams that were replaced at my mates garage years ago.

Think it was No 7 lobes that were the worst ones affected

Was mainly a problem if the cars spent a fair amount of time idling.

But was also a problem for the race cars.

Mates garage didnt get many of them though. None actually.

 

Remember reading one of the race teams back in the day solved the cam oiling issues.

They ground 10 thou flats onto the side of the bottom section of the lifters. And ran a high volume pump,

Lost a little bit of pressure, but cam longevity was no longer an issue.

 

Havent heard anything lately on these lines though.



#8 CI 0308

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 06:55 PM

Dan spend some time reading on the Aussie V8 forum especially the sticky posts that TK383 has done. Terry is an engine builder in S.A and knows his stuff and backs it up with Dyno figures. You can spend hours on the Holden V8 forum.

 

https://www.aussiev8....au/holden-v8s/


Edited by CI 0308, 25 June 2018 - 06:56 PM.


#9 _MiddaSamid_

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 11:52 PM

It's hard being new to a subject.. everything is a lesson.. so many questions.. I was the difficult kid at school..

 

I'll get on to AussieV8.. thanks for the tip



#10 Rockoz

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 10:26 AM

I was thinking of building a 308 at one stage.

I was thinking of modified old school theme.

308 block

VN heads.

Injected

4 x 2 port throttle bodies.

8 x coils like LS motors.

 

Was looking at setting up the distributor as the pulse generator for injection and ignition.

 

Reckon it would have looked the part.

And with modern injection and ignition would have been nice.



#11 rexy

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 10:56 PM

The easiest way to make reliable easy to drive power is to build the largest capacity motor you can afford.

#12 _MiddaSamid_

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 12:03 AM

hey all, trying to find some forum talk on here and AussieV8 about harmonic balancers.. I'm tossing up between Powerbond(Dayco) and Romac.. I'm struggling with rationalising the cost but won't be spending money on anything less than a steel component.. The question I guess I have is who has what and what are the benefits?

 

My engine will be balanced and I need to select my harmonic balancer so the machine shop can get going. I'm likely going with the 10.8kg YT flywheel, am close to buying the Powerbond race series balancer unless someone talks me out of it.. I'm a bit concerned about taking weight out of both the balancer and the fly but fk it, I'll regret not doing it but I might not regret doing it.. live and learn.

 

I need to decide on a pressure plate to supply for the balancing also.. Exedy Sports Tuff or Racing.. anyone have experience with either? I need advice..

 

I'm set on the oiling mod (reroute D/side gallery feed), have A9L rods, Rollmaster timing set, ARP mains and bigends and ACL flat tops. It'll be 060 over..

 

and that's the bottom half..

 

the top half.. Cam discussion will begin soon.. people talk about 286 cam.. I don't really know what that means but I am guessing that's the 286 crow cam? P/N 5619? Their website has a good outline of what to expect and what engine spec will suit it.. seems to be pretty on par with what I am trying to build.. I like the upper rev range of the 292 (P/N 5761) but would compromise on driveability.

 

bolt in roller rockers, new rods and lifters. port clean up and match with the manifold I have(which I can't seem to identify but has USA cast into it) I have both a quadrajet and 600cfm Edelbrock carb. I'm undecided.. long way off..

 

The heads on my 74 QT have some weird exhaust port thru the head to the inlet manifold for something (i'm guessing they are later heads and it's for pollution gear - I'm a newbie remember).. I'm not sure if I'm using them yet.. I expect it will create all sorts of flow turbulence even when blanked off so they might get shelved.. need to learn more about them.. Still need a head guru.. any advice is welcome.

 

Anyone got an M21 Muncie they want to part with?



#13 Rockoz

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 09:29 AM

If you are driving it mainly on the road, you want a cam that performs well in revs you expect to be revving it to during driving.

Little point getting a cam that develops power above 6000 if you are going to be using it in the 3000 to 5000 rev range.

A lot of people made this mistake in the past with cam selection.

Keeping a car revving above 5000 on the streets isnt a nice thing to do.

Its just a basic thought process that many seem to neglect when building an engine.



#14 _LXT333_

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 07:43 PM

Just my 2c but I would be using an engine builder/machine shop that tells me what balancer to use.
I would also be deciding a cam, heads, compression combo well before getting anything balanced.

If I was spending to money in today’s economy.
355 stroker
4 bolt mains
Injected/late/VN heads
cam to match your chosen transmission and compression.
Inlet manifold carburetor to suit the chosen cam and cubic inches.

I know people want the more classic look with the cylinder heads. If that’s the case paint em red.

Btw I got old heads on my engine.
So everything I just typed is my dream engine combo.

#15 I'm a Red Motor fiend

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:32 AM

Choose a cam that works with your trans yes, but I wouldn't choose a cam to match your compression.
Choose a cam for how you intend to use the car, then machine to your desired compression to suit.

#16 _MiddaSamid_

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 11:05 AM

Rotating stock is bought.. 10.8kg YT fly, 3.4kg steel balancer, Sports Tuff Exedy clutch.. Just need the ARP fly bolts and it can go to the balancers.

 

I'll clean up the oil return passages before it goes.. I noticed the heads have a small shoulder that the oil has to pool at before it can flow down the return.. I'll smooth that.. is it necessary to enlarge the return holes? If so, what diameter can be achieved? I also noted apart from a single small (maybe 5/16) hole between the lifters, the dizzy side of the engine doesn't have a through for the oil return.. it has to pool and overflow the valley hump.. All things considered tho, not a lot of oil will have to pool before it does.

 

So apparently ACL don't do pistons anymore.. Now looking at SRP forged (JE). What else is out there? not sure I need forged(or want to spend the cash on them).. what are the cast flat tops like? what are they capable of?

 

I'm struggling to get agreement on the oiling mods.. I've spoken to machine shops and performance shops and everyone says the 308 oiling system is adequate.. I had a discussion with a guy that reckons he's pushing his stock crank/rods and oiling 308 to near 600hp and over 200 9 second passes with no failures.. 7600rpm..

 

on inspection, number1 cam bearing is fed from the D/S gallery so the annulus and drilled hole is infact accessing the feed side of the engine.. The angle of the hole to reach the gallery must be steep to get past the deep welsh plug that closes the gallery off behind the oil pump drive gear.. If anyone knows of engine machine shops that do this work in VIC please let me know..



Oh, and Crow has sent me a personal cam sheet based on what I told them I was building and what it was for.. It's jibberish to me so not sure what to do with it now..



#17 _LXT333_

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:03 PM

Compression ratio to match a cam is as important as stall converter/transmission.
Pending you want said combo to work.

Assuming pistons ie compression ratio had already been decided. Hence select cam to suit desired compression ratio.
You won’t choose a big solid cam to run 9.5 to 1 compression
You also won’t choose a mid hydraulic running 12.5 to 1.

Unless things have changed
Balancers will require pistons and rods to balance correctly.

So IMO you need to decide what pistons/compression ratio, heads and cam you plan on running before anything gets sent to a machine shop for balancing.

#18 _MiddaSamid_

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:40 PM

I have rods.. pistons will come as part of the boring but rotating stock can be balanced without either.. Pistons and rods will be balanced separately.. and by balance I mean weighed and adjusted to all weigh similar.. They aren't part of the rotating system.

 

Hydraulic or solid cam?? aren't all cams just a stick of lumpy steel? I'll be using hyd lifters and roller rockers.. basically the same system as original design with some friction improvements.. My rockers will be basic non adjustable bolt in gear. Crow has recommended lifters as part of the cam selection sheet.

 

heads will most likely be blue with filled exhaust returns, standard valves (mine are 1.82in and 1.51ex), heavy springs with mild head port and port match. basically clean and neat..

 

for the price I'll probably be adding cromoly rods to the top end gear.

 

All that said, the bottom end I am building will cope with a number of different style cams..  I am building a strong and efficient bottom end with a mild well breathing top end.. basically improving the original design. I could use a very tame fuel efficient cam for everyday driving or a fairly wild street cam with the engine I am building.. cam, manifold and carb will be the final decider on how it behaves..

 

it'll all be bolted to a Muncie m21..



#19 Bigfella237

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 04:57 PM

Pistons and rods are statically balanced but you need to know the total weight of the piston & rod combo before you can balance the crank as the counter weights need to offset that weight. I guess you could do it arse-about and try to make the piston weights match later but that seems like making extra work for yourself?

 

And why on earth would you go to all this trouble and then stay with standard sized valves?



#20 _MiddaSamid_

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 06:09 PM

It's likely the same machine shop that preps the block will do the balancing so they'll have the pistons.

 

I'm not sure about head work.. I was reading on AussieV8 that TK383 got some great flow numbers out of a pretty stock blue head. I've done big ports and big valves on a 4cyl before and it made the thing useless at anything other than full noise.. while I don't want to restrict the thing too much, I also don't want to compromise on intake velocity to keep some of the low to midrange useable. I am trying to find a comfortable compromise between performance and driveability and I feel like the heads will help here..

 

ultimately the head guy will direct me on best oath if I can find a holden head specialist..



#21 _MiddaSamid_

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 10:59 PM

can anyone explain the difference between single and dual plane manifolds? 



#22 _MiddaSamid_

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 11:16 PM

Apart from the divider :P

 

I have a single plane (hence the question) and am unsure if it's going to be suitable for a manual car.. I'm thinking not but really have no clue..



#23 Bigfella237

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 12:13 AM

Speaking very generally: single plane, open plenum manifolds are better for WOT high RPM use; whereas dual plane manifolds are better for low-end torque street driving use.

 

Although longer-stroke engines tend to be more forgiving of single plane manifolds at lower RPM. And throttle-body EFI systems tend to prefer the open-plenum design too.



#24 koalasprint

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 02:26 PM

Hi Dan, I did a similar build with the following main differences. Camshaft I used was hydraulic, but a little bigger. Heads are old port layout, but alloy. (Yella Terra -3) Inlet manifold is dual plane high rise from Torque power. Attached is a copy of my build sheet for exact details. Two main things I would do differently next time - 1. Look for a block with more meat. 60 thou over leaves me having to sleeve it if the bores wear out or get damaged. Use pistons with less dish. I had to have heaps taken off the heads to get compression high enough for the camshaft. I was already committed by the time I realised these issues. It is a learning exercise for sure.

I am very happy with the result though. My car is a manual LX Hatchback with a 3.08 diff ratio. The engine has more than enough pull to keep up with city traffic at low RPM and say goodbye if I get enough road to give it a rev.

Attached Files



#25 _MiddaSamid_

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 11:41 PM

I dropped all my gear off today at Dandy Engines.. yay

 

They are doing the head work aswell and we(they) determined 1.94 inlet and 1.6 ex valves(Andrew you'll smile at that) with a mild port job based on the cam spec sheet that Crow Cams put together for me.. Crow are supplying lifters aswell. It'll get LT1 springs and YT bolt in adjustable roller rockers.

 

I'm getting hypatec cast flat tops and they agreed to machine the oil mod into the number1 cam journal.. it'll be zero deck. not sure what that means for CR.. over 10

 

I'm super chuffed.. they're a professional outfit and they helped me (a proper chump) to make some decisions and made me feel like I'm ordering the right stuff.. It's my first attempt at a performance V8 so it's been pretty fkn scary.. tonne of cash and all.

 

you lot have been pretty patient with me which I appreciate.. I ask stupid questions and know pretty much nothing.. so thanks for that.

 

Now I'm in the market for an inlet manifold.. looking for a dual plane airgap and a 750dp holley..

 

And you can all be sure that I'll ask more stupid questions.. just not about engines.. for now 

 

Gearbox next.. decision is made there tho, so not much to discuss.. just need to find one.

 

Steve, thanks for the build sheet.. I'm at 060 but that's the block I've got so Its the way it's going.. If it all goes south and I have to do it again, the block is the least of the cost..

 

Dandy will do the run in after I've built it.. We'll see if I'm as good as I think I am..






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