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308 oil pump pickup issues


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#1 UC308Hatch

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 04:08 PM

Ok brains trust, wondering if anyone else has had this issue & how did you fix it?

Brought a rebuilt red 308, a while ago off a good mate with 150-200km since rebuild ran fine. Put it in the hatch & all good. Car pulled to bits for a full bare metal resto. Engine sat around for a few years, started every 2-4 months. All good still, pulled std sump off & fitted a HE circuit jobbie & wouldn't pick up oil pressure on start. Pulled oil pump & primed with oil, refitted all ok for another 12 months of occasional use.
After a 3-4 month winter break, when warmer weather arrived wouldn't pickup oil pressure on start again. So I brought a brand new JP Std vol oil pump, primed & fitted, all ok on start up & for the next 2 years of occasional use.
Fast forward to now went to start car today & no oil pressure again (2-3 months) since last start. Engine has probably done 1200km since rebuild/purchase & new oil pump less than 500km. Since run in has always had Penrite HPR30 in it.
Before I pull the pump & prime again, any ideas what could be causing this?

Thanks in advance Ron

#2 mick_in_oz

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 04:57 PM

Holden V8's can be a pain for no oil pressure at start up, new build, after an oil change, sitting for long periods, but that's outa control!

 

Is the strainer on the pick up in good nick, shape, doesn't have the bottom metal plate squashed in, has some clearance from the bottom of the sump, hasn't fallen off from being cracked?????

 

Another thought would be if the gasket where the pickup bolts to the block is in good condition and tight and not leaking. I've seen reports of people with trouble because the small flange is a little bent (presumably from over tightening)  and not sealing properly. I'd normally use some Loctite 515 or similar flange sealant on this gasket.



#3 UC308Hatch

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 06:27 PM

Hi Mick, yeah it has me scratching my head. The pic below is from when I fitted the pickup & HE Sump. It's not a std GMH pickup, it's the one that came with the sump. It seemed very solid in construction. I used a gasket at the block end with the hard setting loctite gasket cement (white bottle red lid, #2or3 can't remember). Short of pulling the motor, not sure how to check those things you suggest?

bf836414198e1159a4634d396ec2ff51.png

Edited by UC308Hatch, 09 September 2018 - 06:28 PM.


#4 Bigfella237

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 08:09 PM

Very common problem with Holden V8s.

 

You don't normally need to remove the oil pump to prime, just do it through the oil sender hole.

 

Sometimes you can get away with just pouring oil in the hole, but you would be better off with a pressure primer. Search youtube, should find a few videos, including people who make their own pressure primers.

 

Alternately, if this is a regular issue, fit an oil accumulator such as the Moroso...

 

 



#5 UC308Hatch

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 11:04 PM

Thanks Andrew, I tried the oil pressure sender hole prime with the first oil pump, to no avail. Maybe I didn't have enough pressure.... but put it down to the fact that it was on the output side of the pump & possibly isolated by a non return valve?

I appreciate the info you have posted on the accumulator & I understand how it works to supplements low oil pressure whilst running & at start (on the output or pressure side of pump), but am struggling to see how it will assist my partially dry pump to re-prime? (not trying to be smart just can't see how it is going to flood the input (suction) side of my oil pump helping it to prime...... or have I missed your point or logic?

Edited by UC308Hatch, 09 September 2018 - 11:05 PM.


#6 fuzzypumper

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 11:24 PM

I know that photo was taken straight on but are your your pickup goes deep enough.

I dont start my v8 for months at a time and no issues with oil pressure.



#7 UC308Hatch

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 11:38 PM

Hi Archie, as far as I know its ok. Pic below is before I cleaned it up & fitted it

6bda91fbf10d3ebef8a265ca6c7ea041.png

My question is if it was too short wouldn't I have issues when running (lower sump oil level), not when stopped (with maximum oil in sump to cover pickup)?

#8 rexy

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 11:51 PM

I remember when I fitted the big HE pickup to the 308 currently in my yellow car I had some difficulty getting a socket on the bolts to tighten them. I was quite worried it may have ended up with an air leak. If you bolted the pickup to its main cap supporting bolt first then this may have affected its quality of seal.

I have two Holden V8 s that intermittently sit for a long time between starts, both have HE sumps and pickups and develop oil pressure straight away.

#9 UC308Hatch

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 06:43 AM

Good point Rexy, I've checked the date stamp on the above pics (Nov '13 - way longer than I thought), you might be on to something there, as I can't recall what order I did it up in?? It has been running since at least May '14 & only done this twice in that time.....

#10 ozyozyozy

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 08:00 PM

Iv had pressure issues similar to that.
From memory once i did leave it 6 months and it did not develop pressure, had to reprime it.

Add another issue, have found jp lumps to be hit and miss with quality, can run 5 new pumps same type and all will give different operating pressures and problems.

#11 UC308Hatch

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 10:39 PM

Thanks Ozyozyozy, looks like it's another re-prime for now. If it does it again, I guess I'll have to consider pulling the motor out & checking the pickup pipe.

So considering I need to get the pump primed & I'm feeling super lazy, I thinking I have 3 options.
1. Pull the pump & prime like I did the last two times
2. It was suggested above to remove the sender & inject oil in to prime the pump, dubious that it will go backwards thru the oil filter & not just into the motors oiling system
3. Pull the oil filter off & make an adaptor like this guy has & push oil back to the pump (& possibly turn motor backwards at the same time) to get oil thru pump. Refit filter & start https://youtu.be/cZeePYvLf1E

Thoughts as to what will work? I'm leaning towards 3..... connected to the unused pipe in his video......

Edited by UC308Hatch, 10 September 2018 - 10:42 PM.


#12 rodomo

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 10:53 PM

4. Tip 20 litres of oil into it then drain off the excess after priming?

#13 UC308Hatch

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 10:55 PM

lol hadn't considered that one

#14 mick_in_oz

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 11:01 PM

I've done the prime through the sender hole, had barely 30% success rate with that one, gave up on it and only ever put Vasoline in it and go from there, works every time.

 

As unexpected as it is, I kind of like the sound of the 20L of oil, still seems like effort no one wants to know about...



#15 S pack

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 11:16 PM

Excuse my ignorance but the pump on the 308 hangs down at a 45 deg angle on the block and the filter is below the pump, right?

I find it hard to fathom that you could remove the pump and filter, fill it with enough oil that you can bolt it back onto the block without spilling any in the process and have more oil in the pump than is already in there before you remove it?

 

I this a case of as the oil drains from the pick up back into the sump it also siphons the oil back out of the pump?

 

If my 202 has been sitting not started for long periods it can take a while before the oil pressure comes up so I remove the spark plugs and spin it over on the starter first to get the oil pressure up.



#16 rodomo

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 11:21 PM

lol hadn't considered that one

Should cover the pick-up at least? :D



#17 UC308Hatch

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 11:23 PM

Hey Mick, same here with the oil in sender hole 0%. Due to no Vasaline in house I just used oil & worked it thru pump by turning gears, carefully fitted new gasket with #4 Loctite gasket cement & bolted up. As much as I'm impressed by the out of box thinking, I don't have 20l of HPR30 laying around.....

Yes Dave, in the 2 time I've done it 100% success rate (filter has to come off to get to mounting bolts). Yes the oil had drained out of the pump both times & removing plugs & winding over for 2+ minutes didn't help

Edited by UC308Hatch, 10 September 2018 - 11:27 PM.


#18 hanra

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 08:09 AM

What sort of oil filter is fitted?

#19 UC308Hatch

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 08:12 AM

Hey Brad, either Repco or Ryco depending on what they have in stock at the time (the big original style). Are you thinking it's allowing it to drain back?

Edited by UC308Hatch, 11 September 2018 - 08:15 AM.


#20 UC308Hatch

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 08:42 AM

Sorry Brad, just went back thru some pics apparently had some of these left
660c9aa267619b8c1df8c5d0a05e6dcd.png

#21 UC308Hatch

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 09:14 AM

Actually Brad, you may have hit the nail on the head. The more I think about it, its highly likely that I fitted the new oil pump & used the same oil & filter as they were less than 500km old. The filter could be the cause??

#22 koalasprint

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 11:42 AM

My 20c worth.

Double check oil level, make sure it is at full or slightly over.

#3 Adaptor above is a good idea and will give some insurance in case it does start and no oil pressure. May as well try to pull oil through the pump as well. Who knows, maybe your pump has loose clearances and it may be possible to pull oil up through the sump, Start the engine. If no oil pressure proceed as below.

 

LIGHTLY pack the pump with petroleum jelly. While you are there, check that the oil pump drive is OK. Also, use a tube and try to suck oil up from the sump. The design of the block is very clever. The oil feed path almost forms an s bend so that once the pump gets oil it should keep it. If you can pull oil up from the sump with the tube then the oil pump should also be able. If you're sucking air, then there's a leak. If you can't suck anything then there's a blockage.

 

Let us know how you go.

 

Regards Steve.



#23 UC308Hatch

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 12:32 PM

Thanks Steve, once I get around to making the adaptor, I will give it a go & report back. Might take 2-3 weeks as I have a bit on over the next couple of weeks.

#24 76lxhatch

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 01:02 PM

To prime the engine galleries you can just jam a hose of the right size into the centre hole with the filter off, one of those hand pumps (syringe style) used for filling gear boxes and diffs works great. To prime the pump you need to fill the pickup tube (either pump oil in or suck it from the sump) which will require an adapter along those lines for the outside port. If you have difficulty pulling it from the sump with a hand pump this would indicate an issue with the pickup.

#25 hanra

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 03:16 PM

I was just thinking along the lines of a the Anti-Drain back valve not doing it’s job.

I originally had a Ryco on mine for a few hundred kays then changed the oil and fitted one of those AC Delco ones. I found the oil pressure to be noticeably lower. So I went back to a Ryco.

I think the orange Fram ones are meant to be good.

Edited by hanra, 11 September 2018 - 03:19 PM.





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