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Ecotec 3.8L V6 into LJ 4dr 4cyl?


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#1 _boingk_

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 08:53 PM

Hi all, I'm looking at getting a local LJ 'Deluxe' 4 door sedan. It's got a 4cyl engine and 4 speed manual trans, and overall looks good for the money.

 

My big question is whether you can legally put a 3.8L engine into it. I live in NSW and am well versed with the VSB14, however am not 100% clear on the engine size vs vehicle weight ruling.

 

If I use the kerb weight for this particular vehicle (LJ 4 door 4cyl) then its about 880kg. If I use the highest weight in this body style its about 1070kg. The latter will let me use an engine up to about 4.3L, the former only 3.5L.

 

Can anyone help me with this? I don't want to buy the thing and find I'm seriously limited on new drivetrains.

 

Cheers - boingk



#2 rodomo

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 09:54 PM

VE 3ltr V6 with double overhead bump sticks

#3 Lima31

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 10:08 PM


I'd chat to an engineer if not sure, you'd most likely be getting one involved anyway once you factor in all the other mods required



#4 dattoman

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 08:57 AM

I don't know if they are doing it there... but they are working in a kw/tonne setup here atm I have heard

3.8 V6 started about 153kw

The 3.0 VE V6 is supposedly good for 190kw

 

SR20 ?... 105-120kw without turbo... can add that later. Nice 5 speed behind it

Less weight... more fast :)



#5 Dr Terry

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 09:19 AM

If I use the kerb weight for this particular vehicle (LJ 4 door 4cyl) then its about 880kg. If I use the highest weight in this body style its about 1070kg. The latter will let me use an engine up to about 4.3L, the former only 3.5L.

I don't know that you could convince an engineer that an LJ 4-cyl Torana is the same 'body style' as an LJ 6-cyl. I believe that 880 kg is the figure.

 

Dr Terry



#6 _boingk_

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 08:29 PM

VE 3ltr V6 with double overhead bump sticks

 

Tempting, but a big part of the Ecotec swap would be because they're cheap, parts readily available, and they're cheap. Also... did I already say that they're cheap?

 


I'd chat to an engineer if not sure, you'd most likely be getting one involved anyway once you factor in all the other mods required

 

Yeah, probably the best idea. Cheers.

 

I don't know if they are doing it there... but they are working in a kw/tonne setup here atm I have heard

3.8 V6 started about 153kw

The 3.0 VE V6 is supposedly good for 190kw

 

SR20 ?... 105-120kw without turbo... can add that later. Nice 5 speed behind it

Less weight... more fast :)

 

See above for 3.0, also not sure on packaging re width/height. The Ecotec is my weapon of choice due to cost, reliability, availability and aftermarket support. SR20? Nah, count me out. For roughly the same weight and length you can fit an LS1.

 

I don't know that you could convince an engineer that an LJ 4-cyl Torana is the same 'body style' as an LJ 6-cyl. I believe that 880 kg is the figure.

 

Dr Terry

 

Interesting. I would have thought it was a no-brainer. If they'll do a 253 then surely a 3.8 V6 shouldn't be an issue.

 

Cheers for the input gents, if I get a concrete answer from an engineer I'll be sure to let everyone know what it is.



#7 madtoranajzedded

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 08:45 PM

6cyl and 4cyl are different weights..can do 253 easily in an 6cyl model not so easily in a 4banger.maybe some engineer would put there name to it..

#8 _boingk_

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 11:53 PM

The mass of the vehicle ~ should be based on the heaviest sedan version of the model

 

post-54355-0-56602100-1449185377.jpg

 

Which means all LX Torana, be they Hatch, Sedan, Sunbird or whatever, should be based on the A9X Sedan weight of 1306kg (being the heaviest sedan of the LX model)

 

So maximum capacity for any LX Torana should be:

 

5 x 1306kgs = 6530cc (398.485ci) for naturally aspirated; or

 

5 x 1306kgs = 3918cc (239.091ci) for forced induction.

 

But, why the hell do they use words like "should" in an official document, is that an absolute rule or not?

 

Some engineers will quote the table above as gospel, some seem to use it more as a guideline, there have been many examples lately of Supercharged 6.2L LSA engines going into Toranas and early Commodores, which according to that table "should" be impossible to engineer!

 

The above is courtesy of Bigfella237 - 'Engine Sizes Under NCOP'. Took a bit of finding but that's pretty much my line of thinking. Hell, with a max model weight of 1070kg I'd be sweet for a 253 but as I'm after the V6 I should be fine..

 

Now to find an engineer.

 

Cheers - boingk


Edited by boingk, 22 May 2019 - 11:57 PM.


#9 _boingk_

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 01:31 PM

...and the engineer agrees. Basically it's the letter of the law, as outlaid in the quoted post above.

He did warn that it would greatly simplify the process to use a reputable conversion kit, and to specifically request it come with technical and certification documents from the manufacturer, and obviously the brakes and suspension would need to be upgraded to match the power level, with top-tier factory fitted (eg XU1) components as a minimum.

Woohoo! Looks like I may have a Torry in my backyard sometime this year.

#10 S pack

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:28 PM

If you are still going the route of a 4 cyl LJ the heaviest 4cyl model was the 82469 at 861kg kerb weight x 4 (per the table above) = a maximum engine capacity of 3444cc



#11 _boingk_

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:06 PM

If you are still going the route of a 4 cyl LJ the heaviest 4cyl model was the 82469 at 861kg kerb weight x 4 (per the table above) = a maximum engine capacity of 3444cc


Indeed, but the heaviest sedan was equipped with a 6cyl and weighed about 1070kg, allowing for a 4.3L engine.

The VSB makes that part clear, as did the engineer.

#12 Zook

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:17 PM

The heaviest 4cyl sedan weighed in at 935kg according to Holden publication M36764. This was for the LC fitted with the 1600. The LJ was also fitted with the 1600 so you could probably use the same number for a little more wriggle room, if as SPack says, you are still going this route.
Edit. Just saw your latest. If your engineer lets you use the 6cyl numbers for a 4cyl car then you are lucky.

Edited by Zook, 23 May 2019 - 05:20 PM.


#13 Toranamat69

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:49 PM

Good luck fitting 6 cylinder brakes and front suspension components to a 4 cylinder body
They are completely different and not interchangeable. It would probably be easier to go custom brakes if they are still being done for the 4 cylinder models.

#14 _boingk_

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 07:12 PM

The heaviest 4cyl sedan weighed in at 935kg according to Holden publication M36764. This was for the LC fitted with the 1600. The LJ was also fitted with the 1600 so you could probably use the same number for a little more wriggle room, if as SPack says, you are still going this route.
Edit. Just saw your latest. If your engineer lets you use the 6cyl numbers for a 4cyl car then you are lucky.


935 gives 3740cc, that would be within limits for a 3.8L engine.

The 6cyl/4cyl doesn't matter according to the VSB, its the heaviest sedan weight. Conversely, this would work *against* you if you had a heavy coupe or station wagon.

I had a good chat to the engineer, he seemed to think that as long as the brakes, suspension and driveline were up to spec and engine installed with appropriate considerations to emissions, NVH and clearances it would be fine.

Like I said, he specifically warned me against making my own mounts and was very much relieved when I said I was considering a Castlemaine Rod Shop conversion kit. He went on to say that a lot of the biggest issues he sees are with poor consideration to safety, poor quality welding and fabrication, and poor clearances around moving or hot parts such as engine, exhaust, and driveshaft.

I'll have another chat via email to him to get it in writing before going any further, though, a phone call is one thing but writing is another.

#15 _boingk_

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 07:17 PM

Good luck fitting 6 cylinder brakes and front suspension components to a 4 cylinder body
They are completely different and not interchangeable. It would probably be easier to go custom brakes if they are still being done for the 4 cylinder models.


That would be my choice. I have no interest in dealing with OEM style components from the era. Even a hub conversion to allow VS/VT style brakes is on the cards. I don't want to skimp on brakes, not with additional weight and power.

#16 Toranamat69

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 08:08 PM

The only brake conversion kit i remember seeing for the 4 cylinder little Torana was hopper stoppers. They do list torana hb/viva/ta on their index page still but no pics or details.

#17 Zook

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 08:32 PM

The 6cyl/4cyl doesn't matter according to the VSB, its the heaviest sedan weight.

Yes, sedan weights of similar models.
4cyl and 6cyl are not similar. In any case the NCOP is a guide, and the extent to which you choose to deviate will only be limited by how much you can pay your engineer.

#18 dattoman

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 09:06 PM

Rodshop does kits for 4cyl Toranas to fit a V6 ?

 

Don't confuse a 4cyl body + crossmember with a 6cyl car... nothing is the same



#19 WhaleOilBeefHooked

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:05 PM

Exception was 4cyl Deluxe had same seats as GTR :fool:



#20 _boingk_

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:20 PM

Rodshop does kits for 4cyl Toranas to fit a V6 ?

 

Don't confuse a 4cyl body + crossmember with a 6cyl car... nothing is the same

 

I'm making assumptions here, but they seem pretty open and comprehensive. I'm still waiting on feedback from the email I sent them.

 

Yes, sedan weights of similar models.
4cyl and 6cyl are not similar. In any case the NCOP is a guide, and the extent to which you choose to deviate will only be limited by how much you can pay your engineer.

 

Seeing as they both have 'Torana' as a make and 'Holden' as a manufacturer I'd argue they're identical to the powers that be.

 

The hell with it, have you read the actual document, or spoken to an engineer? I see you have a 4cyl LC, this may be of interest to you. I appreciate it's a guide, but ultimately if you stay within it it's going to be 100% ridgey didge, and that's what matters... to me at least. Here's the relevant part of the document:

 

2.13.1  Vehicle Mass 

The mass of the vehicle referred to in Tables LA1, LA2 and LA3 is the original (unmodified) tare mass of the model vehicle fitted with the largest engine available for the model in Australia but without optional accessories (air conditioning, tow bars etc.). The mass of the vehicle, whether it is a sedan, station wagon, utility, etc., should be based on the heaviest sedan version of the model (not station wagon version) sold in Australia.

 

Emphasis on "fitted with the largest engine available for the model" and "heaviest sedan version of the model." So be it a 4cyl / 6cyl / 8cyl car, it doesn't matter. All that matters is what that model came with from factory. So HB's are stuck with a tiny weight and engine, LC/LJ about 1070 or so, LH/LX a bit better due to V8 fitments and larger overall weight.

 

Apologies if I've come off like I've had my feathers ruffled, just trying to lay out some straight information which may be of use to others... and primarily myself at this point in time.

 

Cheers - boingk



#21 madtoranajzedded

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:43 PM

Yeah it does dude.lc-lj-ta are all different models.largest engine for your model is 1600..

You actually stated in the first couple lines above
"Emphasis fitted with the largest engine available for the model" why do you think the vsb chart above states 4,6 and 8cyl..

#22 madtoranajzedded

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:59 PM

By all means im not saying you cant get it done or anything...i think its great you want to do this..you find the right engineer that can do the work and pass it off all at the same time you wont have any problems.

Edited by madtoranajzedded, 23 May 2019 - 11:02 PM.


#23 _boingk_

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 11:00 PM

Yeah it does dude.lc-lj-ta are all different models.largest engine for your model is 1600..

You actually stated in the first couple lines above
"Emphasis fitted with the largest engine available for the model" why do you think the vsb chart above states 4,6 and 8cyl..

 

Yes, they are all different models. No, the largest engine for the LJ is a 202ci / 3.3L. The largest 4-cyl was a 1600. For clarification, the heaviest LJ based sedan had a 186 and weighed roughly 1070kg. This allows (per the table) about 4.3L engine to be fitted.

 

The chart above says nothing about cylinder count.

 

I'm in NSW, first post and forum info under my sig. The engineering firm I'm speaking with is out West and seems very happy to do the work. Quote: "Mate this sounds good, we do it all by the letter so if its in the VSB we'll sign off on it. And this sounds fine."

 

Like I said, I'm not doing anything until I get it in writing. A phonecall is one thing but writing is another kettle of fish.


Edited by boingk, 23 May 2019 - 11:06 PM.


#24 madtoranajzedded

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 11:44 PM

It doesnt either😂 i dont know what the heck made me think that...puts stubby down.slowly walks back away from it haha.

#25 S pack

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:42 AM

Just for clarification.

Technically speaking HB, LC, LJ, TA are the SERIES of vehicle.

Within a vehicle series are different models ie 2 dr sedans, 4 dr sedans, coupes, station wagons, utes etc etc and within these models are/can be model variants with different luxury levels and power train options.

In the case of LC & LJ Series Torana GMH split the Series into two distinct types: 4cyl engine series and 6cyl engine series, and within these 4 & 6cyl engine series are the various models with different luxury levels and power train options.

If you have made the engineer totally aware of the major differences between the 4cyl & 6cyl engine series and models in the LJ Series and he is happy to use the heaviest 6cyl model for the engine size calculation then get it in writing and go for it.

FYI the biggest engine fitted to an LJ 4dr sedan was the optional 202 in 1973.

 

Good luck with the project.

Cheers

Dave.


Edited by S pack, 24 May 2019 - 06:43 AM.





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