35 replies to this topic

[Rainman]

We all know there has been a lot of deaths on our roads, Even one is to many. Drugs / speeding / alcohol to name a few. Are they conditions of our roads another. I have driven some country kays and notice signage explaining dodgy workmanship. I can hear the road workers. Hey Boss, Jack cant lay roads for shit. I think it was the piss talking. What the frock are we going to do ? Just buy some more of those undulating signs on your way back from the bottle shop.

[Rockoz]

The number 1 killer on our roads is the lack of driver training.

I have attended hundreds of crashes over the years. Many of them fatals. A lot multiple fatalities.

Lots and lots of injured people.

I have helped pull them out badly injured, dead, and in a few cases, in pieces.

 

I have yet to see a single crash that could have been avoided by any of the following.

 

The ability to reverse park.

The ability to do a hill start.

The ability to do a U turn.

The ability to do a 3 point turn.

 

Not a single crash could have been avoided with any of those skills.

 

Cars have become easier to drive. They are safer in the event of a crash.

They have become quieter and more comfortable.

They require less and less driver input as engineering progesses.

 

As a rule, our roads have become better and safer.

Road shoulders have been extended. Trees have been removed.

Multiple lanes have been created.

Speed limits reduced.

 

But if you look into the statistics, our road toll has been decreasing yearly. 

When you look at the number of deaths per thousand registered vehicles, it shows a steady decrease.

 

More than 95% of drivers only have enough ability to keep their car reasonably between the painted lines on the road.

In the event that something unusual happens, like a slight loss of control, they have no idea on what to do.

Quite often they do the exact opposite of what they should do.

 

Drivers without necessary training and ability, has always, and will always be the major cause of crashes.

[Indy Orange]

Some roads are better than others ,I believe you have to drive to the conditions,if it's narrow and your coming to a crest ,slow down and keep left etc.Drugs and alcohol and speed,have a major role in accidents,not to mention mobile phones.

[Max's SS]

Too easy to blame the roads for accidents.........it's the inability of people to drive and make good decisions.

[Tyre biter]

The number 1 killer on our roads is the lack of driver training...

...Drivers without necessary training and ability, has always, and will always be the major cause of crashes.

I am absolutely with you - none of those driver test skills kill anyone whereas, observation, concentration and anticipation aka driver attitude...

I also totally agree re safer driving environment and vehicles.

I don't however agree with DT being the key.

 

The crash data is clear - crash rates among those undertaking DT are higher than those not - this is why insurers don't give a discount generally.

It is this way because DT courses focus on skills, not attitude and produce shitty products.

My vocation has seen me fortunate enough to be trained in the highest road riding/driving courses and whilst skills where important, it was generally attitude that saw folks punted from courses - poor decision making, hazard appreciation, driving plans, decision making and those three tenets of observation, concentration and anticipation.

 

I also look to the data - our kids aren't ready - they are never safer than when on their L's and never more at risk than the first day of their P's.

The risk trends down thereafter until you reach older to middle aged males and voila - up it goes...

Just observations.

 

But I do wonder: if we never had cars and tomorrow we kicked them into use - would we in this day and age attempt to separate them using paint on a road surface, words on a post or coloured lights anticipating (as is the case) the majority of collisions and injuries occur at intersections?

 

Cheers, TB 

[Rockoz]

I dont actually agree entirely with the data that the insurance companies provide.

 

When I did my first course, they had done their own research. Mind you this was in the late 70s.

Those who had done training were more likely to get speeding tickets.

They were involved in less crashes, and those that they were involved in, had a lesser impact in terms of damage to property and others than those without training.

 

But attitude is a huge thing.

Until we can instil some respect into kids the way it was in years gone by, then there isnt a great future ahead for many of them.

 

Training and abilities follow a 4 part rule, which is a circle, which is often a continuous cycle.

 

Consciously Incompetent.

This is the first step in learning a new task.

You dont really know what you are doing, and you know it.

 

Consciously Competent.

You have learned the task.

You know that you know what you are doing.

This is the first stage after learning a new skill.

 

Unconsciously Competent.

You have performed the task many times, and it comes easily to you.

You dont have to think too much about what you need to do to achieve the given task.

This is where you might be referred to as good at the job, and you know it.

 

Unconsciously incompetent.

Youve been doing the same task for ages, and you have found a few little shortcuts.

Things that arent entirely necessary because the task still gets done.

In driving terms it might be failing to indicate when changing lanes, letting the speed run away ets.

 

Then something happens. An incident, or perhaps a warning from a boss for a work related thing, or a ticket from a cop for a driving offence.

This is when you revert to being consciously incompetent. You have done the wrong thing and you now know it.

 

Any one that blames a road for a crash is just making excuses for poor attitude on their own behalf.

If the road was the problem, then nearly every vehicle travelling the same section of road would suffer the same fate.

 

The only trouble with the above cycle however, is that the majority of drivers are only competent enough to pass a ridiculously easy test, and manage to stay reasonably safe on the roads.

 

Those who still refer to crashes as accidents need to have a rethink.

An accident implies that it just happened, and that no one is really to blame.

 

The Police stopped calling them accidents in the 90s I think. Accident Investigation became Crash Investigation.

There are still often references to accidents even by some Police agencies.

But events are usually referred to as incidents or crashes officially.

[Zook]

Those are lots of words again when a few will do. Parents teach your children well, commonsense included...and perhaps have a say in what they buy as their first car.

[Indy Orange]

Doesn't matter what they buy 4 or 8 cyl ,still kill you without common sense.

Edited by Indy Orange, 02 June 2019 - 09:29 PM.

[Tyre biter]

...But attitude is a huge thing.

Hear, hear

IMO, it's the only thing - everything else is just a flavour of attitude.

Cheers, TB

[VinnieSLR]

The number 1 killer on our roads is the lack of driver training.

It still perplexes me that a defensive driving course or similar is not mandatory to get a driver's licence and also maintain a driver's licence

[Rockoz]

Those are lots of words again when a few will do. Parents teach your children well, commonsense included...and perhaps have a say in what they buy as their first car.

 

 

Sorry if I made your life difficult by having to read my post.

 

But it is a subject that I hold close to my heart.

 

I did my first advanced driver training course about 40 years ago.

It has saved me form serious injury or death at least once.

It has saved me from untold amounts of repair bills.

 

And I am entering my 20th month off work due to the actions of a driver not paying sufficient attention to their driving.

I will unlikely be able to work full time in the near future, or perhaps ever.

I have endured an operation to replace an ACL.

And I have had a double spinal fusion, linking S1, L5 and L4 together forever.

 

Driver training may well have helped the driver actually see me instead of looking straight through me.

I had about 3 metres to react at a speed of 50kph.

I did well to manage to live through the crash.

[hanra]

If this aint classed as an accident I dont know what is....  The police still call it a crash... 

 

I think our regional and country roads account for some of these incidents for sure. Once you get out of the city and see the real Australia you will understand. 

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Edited by hanra, 03 June 2019 - 10:12 AM.

[Cook]

When I first started driving you had to understand how to manage a manual, you didn't have great suspension, a radio was only a possibility, etc, etc, etc.  You also learned early what happened if you over/under steered without traction control.  You really had to drive the car and that, I believe also made you realise how far you could push the car, and made you concentrate, not only on it but your surroundings. Then add a bit of weather condition, rain, sun, night vision just for a bit of fun.  

In general, today's city roads are better than in my early years and I used to run jockey between Melbourne/Sydney/Brisbane for a furniture removalist during school holidays and the Hume wasn't that flash then (those will know, plenty of coke to stimulate the gear).  

 

I refer to todays cars as a four wheel lounge suite.  Sit back and enjoy the ride.  

 

Sadly (unless it is a single driver accident), there is always someone in the wrong and you can't build that into your capabilities.  

 

Drive carefully. Cheers Ron

[Rockoz]

If this aint classed as an accident I dont know what is....  The police still call it a crash... 

 

I think our regional and country roads account for some of these incidents for sure. Once you get out of the city and see the real Australia you will understand. 

 

That would likely be in the less than 0.01% of crashes that could be determined as an accident.

However, you also need to look at the bigger picture before deciding on whether the action of another person may have led to it not happening.

 

Was the driver driving according to the prevailing conditions?

 

Is it possible that a correct action by the person or body responsible for the tree could have led to the event not happening?

 

Trees do become less stable if their root system is disturbed during things like construction of roads.

Think of it as removing one leg from a tripod.

The root systems of most hardwood trees extends  to around the same size as the canopy.

I can remember doing storm damage work in the area around St Ives near Sydney.

A lot of the trees that came down had their root systems disturbed by either roads or other things like swimming pools.

 

So was it really an accident?

Is it possible that a decision that was made or not made by someone else contributed to the incident?

 

Cheers 

 

Rob

[hanra]

The tree fell down because the road goes through 19klm of rainforest. 

[S pack]

The tree fell down because the road goes through 19klm of rainforest. 

Freaky accident that's for sure.

[hanra]

These two trees came down on my way to work a few months back. We all got past the first one to find another one down. The second one was a bit too big for one of the other motorists chainsaw to get through. He got through the first one no worries and we all helped drag it off the road. Prob a week or two earlier a car came around a bend and slammed into a similar sized tree. Wrote the car off. It was a mess. 

 

Dosnt this sort of thing happen in the cities? 

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Edited by hanra, 04 June 2019 - 10:51 AM.

[Ice]

No Brad we chop all the trees down and build apartments in the city

[Rockoz]

The tree fell down because the road goes through 19klm of rainforest. 

 

 

Which then falls into the category of avoidable.

Trouble is no one will admit they made a bad decision.

Liability issues come with things like that, and given the green movement in most areas, they value the tree over human life.

[Zook]

But it is a subject that I hold close to my heart.

I'm sorry to hear about your accident. My life wasn't made difficult by reading your post. My point was that when you complicate a simple issue then you lose your audience. In the earlier posts before trees got involved everyone agreed attitude was a common factor in causing accidents. Not everyone agreed that advanced driver training helped. This is because it doesn't. If you have lost control of a vehicle to the extent that you need to rely on your 'advanced skills' then you were driving incorrectly in the first place. That's attitude since, at the most basic level, we were all taught to drive to the conditions.

[Zook]

Excuse the long post...can't edit but I do understand irony.

[Rockoz]

I worked alongside crash investigators at times.

I was also taught the art of photographing a crash scene.

What to look for, what to highlight, and how to do it to provide accurate evidence.

 

My photography was used a number of times as evidence.

 

Most people only look to a certain depth into a particular topic.

I go much deeper when I look at things.

All par of the training.

Which is why the issue of trees became involved.

 

And as far as your comment on being taught to drive to the conditions, thats what they tell you to do.

But they dont go any further to explain it.

Advanced driver training will help in situations where something like an unexpected slippery surface comes into play.

That type of scenario can occur when you would be otherwise driving sensibly.

 

My driver training helped me avoid a head on collision.

The bloke behind me wasnt quite so lucky.

I got away with a side swipe. He got more damage because he did what would be considered a normal reaction. 

 

Some will agree, and others wont.

But I have never heard fo any other scenario where less training would be considered as better than more training.