15 replies to this topic

[claysummers]

Anyone identify the steering box in this photo? HKGT??
Cheers
Clay


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[S pack]

Yep that's a K,T,G steering box.

[claysummers]

Thanks Dave
Cheers
Clay


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[yel327]

Check the top adjacent to the cover. Looking from the front, bottom left is a date code. Top left will have 16.7:1 if it is from a car with power steering or a GTS or another car optioned with the 16.7:1 steering.

 

Is it out of a HD-HR or similar? Looks like a mashup of different vehicles.

[claysummers]

HR x member, CRS drop stubs, Torana discs, FB snout, ktg box, I don’t know what you mean 8).


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[yel327]

Can you do a similar conversion to a HD-HR front end without drop stubs? I have been toying with buying a HD-HR of some sort (like a good car that needs not much work), as I need a home for the 307, powerglide and 2.78 LSD banjo that is coming out of my HK GTS. It will all bolt straight into a HD-HR and even the column shift hooks up to the HK V8 powerglide crossover mechanism and the HK V8 powerglide crossmember goes straight into a HD-HR. But the biggest pain is I'd need better brakes than standard HR, so I'd just run the HK's rear drums and possibly HG front with 14" wheels. But I wouldn't want drop stubs as I do not like lowered cars, not massively lowered anyway. The Engineer may not like the 307 either, but that is easily fixed (I have a heap of 283's in the shed).

How much mods were required to make the HK-HG steering box fit? Did it also use a HK-HG column?

[claysummers]

Many ways you can go yel. Stock HR disc stubs with stock solid rotors and girling calipers, even ones off HK. Torana brakes will fit the stock stubs but increase track and scrub radius. HQ stubs fit and have correct geometry so that opens up the options. Torana stubs result in excess caster as the king pin inclination is different of course. There are kits to adapt various brakes to the more common HR drum stubs.

There are a few upgrades required for the v8 but it has been done many a time. Rack and pinion is generally required for clearance and the chassis torsional rigidity, braking wipers etc need to be equivalent to LH LX. Exhaust fitment can be tricky. Personally I wouldn’t bother putting a vee six or eight in an early but SBC is probably the most suited after v6.
Cheers
Clay


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[claysummers]

The idea of the HKTG box is to get 20:1 ratio for lighter steering with wide tyres up front. Standard FE HR is 16:1 similar to close ratio HKTG. Also to run collapsible column for compliance in some states upgrading from grey to red six. V6 V8 usually requires rack and pinion conversion for clearance although it can be done without.

Two lugs on the HKTG box line up, one requires reworking the subframe, and the fourth becomes redundant. It turns out to be more practical to cut down an early column, which are one piece, graft on a joint and fit ktg or custom collapsible column. But you’re then stuck with 16:1 steering ratio. Most people don’t want to butcher the subframe on the old cars now.


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[yel327]

Thanks, cool info. No interest in V6 or red 6 or even Holden V8 in a HD-HR. SBC or nothing! I have seen the complete engine and box (307 and 'glide) from a HK V8 dropped straight into a HR using all HK mounts and crossmember. It all fits, they are basically the same car as far as the engine and box are concerned. a HK is basically just a modified HR.

 

I wouldn't bother with HR discs, way too expensive for what they are, and too small. Same with Torana. HQ would work, but would just mean getting some axles made with HQ pattern on them and run HQ drums on the back rather than HK. If HQ stubs and calipers work though HK-HG stubs (same as HQ) and brakes should work. I am putting a Rodshop front end into my HK with a Territory power steering rack and Astra electric pump, so I could do the same with a HD-HR but just run the standard XF rotors and VS calipers they use (my HK on has the upgraded AUII-FG rotors and calipers) so it could run 14" rims. The original idea was though to use the HK SBC sump with the standard HD-HR steering. I'd only be running 5" rims with something like 185R14 tyres so no problem with steering being heavy.

 

Will think about it once the HK is finished. I saw a really nice HR ute the other day, stock 186 auto with all drums, doesn't need anything doing to it, just the clunker driveline removed and upgraded. It was less than $30k, registered. Got me thinking.

[claysummers]

Sorry but you are off the mark on the HR HK compatibility. HK track is 1451mm, whereas FE to HR is 1384 to 1389mm.

FE to HR are basically on the same platform and hence the price of the HR front ends, being ball joint and bolt in to FE on. LC LJ are another conversion for earlies as they are a similar platform, although track is narrower at 1316mm(1326 xu1).

HKTG are a step up in size to compete with the valiants, fords and accomodate the 307. HK axle will not fit under HR unless you’re building a spot lighting wagon, sorry. V8 conversion to FE HR often involves running headers out through the inner guards due to clearance issues, and hence the necessity for R&P steering.

I don’t me@n to be a knocker. Plenty of people do it but be prepared for some work, and the car you paid$30k for will then be worth less.
Cheers
Clay


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[claysummers]

Here is a picture of Andrew Harvey’s 327 EK wagon engine bay. Very similar to HR engine bay. When they made the HD HR bigger most of the extra size went in the wheel wells. As a result you can fit big rubber. They wanted them to look bigger like the competition but used the old platform. Just like when they put the VN body on the old VL floor pan. You can see the headers exiting the guards. I’m sure the owner Harv is on here now and again.


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[yel327]

HK is in reality a modified HD-HR. When you have them fully apart you can see the similarities. I was looking at a HD wagon bare shell next to a HK shell recently and you can see how close they are and how GMH modified them. The floors are very close. The leaf springs are virtually the same. They just widened the car a little. I know they are tighter than a HK in the engine bay but a HD-HR 6cyl and powerglide will fit straight into a HK and vice versa. Same with the 307 and SBC powerglide, using the HK V8 gearbox crossmember of course, but goes staright onto the HD-HR engine mounts. I get the steering box and exhaust clearances. The car I've seen done just used HK exhaust manifolds from memory but it did have different steering.

 

I was never intending to use a HK axle, just the V8 banjo centre with appropriate HD-HR housing mods to accommodate.    

[claysummers]

Sure I agree that each model Holden was basically an evolution of the previous model. They brought out a new one every year or two after all. However quantum leaps were made at various points and the change from HR to HK is one of those points. You will need a modified front crossmember for sump clearance and engine mount relocation, as well as the rack mounting. Rod Hadfield was producing these from about 1980. Floor pan should accomodate the power glide okay.

Yes you can run the banjo housing and you may need custom axles depending on stud pattern and if your centre is fine spline. Many are now using shortened borg Warner’s as in Torana.

You can pretty well bolt a VK or LX UC six and auto in to an auto bodied EH because they are basically the same motor. Putting in a v8 to a six cylinder body requires more work. There is no factory v8 front crossmember for an early and they weren’t designed to take v8.

I don’t want to put you off. A v8 early Holden is a worthwhile project. You will find it is far from a straight swap. A lot of guys are managing to keep the exhaust inside the rails now. One build I’ve seen uses left and right factory manifolds from different models to fit a 253.


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[claysummers]

Found this photo of sbc into hr on the net
Can’t say I am a fan of headers exiting through the inner guards on a street car.


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[Dr Terry]

 Standard FE HR is 16:1 similar to close ratio HKTG. 

Not quite so. FE to EJ is 14:1, EH to HR is 16:1. It doesn't sound much but it is noticeable.

 

Dr Terry

[claysummers]

Thanks Dr Terry,
Definitely be worth thinking about using a HR box if converting FE EJ to collapsible column.
Cheers
Clay


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