13 replies to this topic

[Cook]

Hi all.  Not exactly sure where to place this as it covers a few things. 

I have a 308 with tri y pacemaker extractors (sadly already ceramic coated) and t400 trans. 

I have HK-HT engine mounts which I chose on the belief that I could get the engine a bit lower and back (right or wrong?).

Added to that I had issues with the shifter (happy to comment on) but do not believe this affects my issue.

Now having got the engine/extractors on the K frame and the front end in the car (which took a lot of swearing) I'm having a few issues. 

Firstly the aftermarket shifter rod was short between shifter and t400 bracket (if that makes sense).  It measures ~490mm when my research suggests it should be ~530mm so had to weld a piece in. 

I have a CRS cross-member and mount which appear to be fine. 

The angle of the engine/trans on the cross-member seems to sit a bit low and even if it's right there is minimal (no) clearance for the extractors against the k frame.

To help with the extractor clearance I need to lift the trans about 8mm (10mm would be better) but when I do that I have a clearance issue against the tunnel with the retainer bolt for the trans shifter rod. I can't massage the tunnel now that all is in place so I'm thinking I will do it from inside via a dent puller?  Open to ideas.

 

So my view is the simple issue of massaging the tunnel from the inside will fix a multitude of issues(to a certain degree) but what is the deal with the pinion angle. The rear end is a 9 inch with standard boxed trailing arms which are obviously not adjustable.  I understand the geometry but if I cant adjust the rears is it ok providing the two ends run at different angles?  

Besides all that if someone wants to advise on any aspect great.  Cheers Ron

 

[yel327]

What car? LH-LX?

Tunnel needs massaging for TH400.

HK-HG mounts are the same as HQ-WB. Look very different but the overall geometry from engine to slots for the mounting bolts is the same.

If the 9” has been setup with factory angle it should be about 4.5deg from memory (others will know for sure). You want the engine to be the same. Pretty sure a 308 is like a SBC where if the crank angle is zero the carb mounting face is 4.5deg forward, so if you get the carb face level the crank is at 4.5deg backwards.
Again check this is correct first, only going by Chevrolet info.

[yel327]

Forgot to add that diff pinion angle changes under acceleration, so often the diff pinion actually points down when static but ideally moves up to match the crank/box angle (if I understand it correctly). The diff builder should know what you need.

[claysummers]

What yel327 says about allowing for pinion walk is important on the drag strip. On a cruiser I believe you are best to set them up parallel or maybe half a degree down on the pinion. You can download a spirit level app on your phone and measure the flange angle on the diff pinion and the balancer pulley or rear gearbox seal under the car. Half tank of fuel and driver onboard etc. Try and replicate normal driving stance in other words. If they aren’t close to parallel for most driving you will get juddering, vibration and excessive wear.


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[Cook]

Thanks gents.  It's in my LX hatch.

The diff was built by Adrian at John Taverna Chassis so I am confident it was built to factory angles. I'll ask him about the angles and try and work out where both ends sit.

I knew I should have listened more in geometry class. bugger. Cheers Ron

[yel327]

Maybe a first check would be to get you engine level by using reference points front and rear that are known to be parallel, like the block to sump face. Then put one of these on the top of the manifold where the carby goes and see what angle that is. This will give you the intended factory installation angle of a 308 in a Holden.
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[Cook]

I don't think I can use the block to sump face to check engine level as the sump is bolted up, unless I'm misunderstanding what you are telling me. 

 

I was speaking with a guy in the motor industry that suggested i should level the engine off the inlet manifold on the carby facing.  His rationale is that the carby should be level to retain the same level of fuel in each of the fuel bowls. I'm not sure if that makes sense or is logical.

 

Advice from another thread was to level the car via the sills.  I downloaded the inclinometer app (thanks Clay) which appears to be pretty accurate and it shows I need to raise the front of the car about 2deg. I'll do that then level the engine off the manifold and see where the trans sits at that point. This may not be the absolutely correct way to do it but it is a good starting point.  The rear end is going to be a bit more difficult at present because there is no weight in the rear so I might have to have a think about how I address that.  Thanks again gents.  Watch this space.  Cheers Ron

[yel327]

You should be able to pick up areas of the bottom “deck” of the block like the starter mount and an area at the front.

As I said in the second post the carby face set flat should give you about 4-4.5deg crank angle, but you need to check that carby face angle using a known flat face on the block.

[claysummers]

Ron,
Accurate way to measure the crank angle, set the car up at normal driving stance on a level surface and measure the height of crank snour and gearbox output shaft.the difference in height divided by the horizontal distance between the two measuring points is the tangent of the angle.

Eg crank snout 350mm, minus output 300mm, divided by horizontal distance 1500mm is 0.0333333. Arc tan 1.9 degrees. 10mm error in the height difference equates to less than a half degree in the angle.



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[Cook]

Geez Clay, that's easy for you to say lol.  Issue I see is getting a level surface (garage floor has slope in it) and getting an accurate snout measurement with the balancer and pulley on.  Please bear in mind my level of expertise in anything cars is, well let's just say limited to be kind.  

 

I have levelled the body of the car via the sills, which by luck or good fortune resulted in the manifold carby facing being level. This is with some spacers under the trans mount of about 10-11mm. I had put there the other day to see where it needed to be to get some clearances. Coincidentally the underside of the trans sump is level. Measured the angle of the crank balancer pulley at this point and it hovers between 4-5deg, which is as per Yel's advice. The angle of the trans output shaft is 5deg. but I need to get a more accurate reading when I fix up the spacers I put in there.   

 

Yel I think I am starting to understand what you are talking about with getting the engine level.  Like Clay, are you say do a measurement from those points to the ground? Haven't done that yet and not sure how accurate that will be if I have a fall in the floor or is it ok as long as they are parallel? Thanks for your patience.  Cheers Ron

[yel327]

To the ground, or see if you can get a level across those points using two equal length standoffs like bits of equal length angle, pipe or tube. Even if you can get some threaded rod into tapped holes and have it point to the ground, one front and one back, measure and mark both the same distance from the block face and use those marks against a spirit level to then know the sump face is level. Then you can measure the carb face angle on the manifold.

[claysummers]

Sounds to me like you have you’re engine and trans set right relative to the car Ron. Just need to put some weight on the rear to simulate half full tank of fuel, spare, jack, etc. Then compare inclinometer measurement on the front of the balancer to the diff flange, which should be the same or pointing down slightly, say one degree or less.

Put a fish crate in the boot and fill with 50 litres of water. Another in the driver position and fill with 80 litres or as many litres as you weigh in kilos. All depends on your suspension geometry and spring rates as to how much difference this will make to the pinion angle if any.


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[koalasprint]

To get an accurate angle measurement of my engine I use the sharp edge of the sump. It is the edge that runs parallel to the block to sump mating surface. Conveniently it is under the car where i am also measuring the tail shaft and diff angles. A four post hoist really is great for this.

 

Another option is to look for a surface up top, like along where the cylinder head/inlet manifold/rocker covers meet.

 

At the end of the day your car may be out by a degree. If that's the best you can get without further expense, time and work then I'd wait until you drive it to see if it causes an issue.

 

Cheers, Steve.

[Cook]

Hi guys.  Thought I should give an update (hopefully resolution).  Whilst getting the engine and trans angles pretty good found I had an issue with steering clearance issue at the uni joint, albeit I am using a Borgeson uni, which is smaller in diameter than the rag joint.  It was as a result of trying to keep the engine as low as practical (so as to keep it all under the bonnet) and using HK-HG mounts.  I've since swapped these over for original mounts, which was a real pain to do without pulling the engine out, but now I have the clearance and better clearance at the sump.  I did have to massage the tunnel but it was only to clear the retaining nut that holds the shifter rod to the trans bracket (if that makes sense).  Engine/trans angles all appear to be in line with as advised above.  Now that I'm comfortable with the engine I've been working on getting the plumbing sorted Cheers Ron