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#1 MFM

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 01:59 PM

Well debated topic I know, but just watched an interesting programme which might be relevant now due to the demise of Holden. How do you determine collector car values or future values and they explain 4 points to consider.

 

Was the car interesting when it was new.

How many did they manufacture.

Did it have racing/competition history.

How many are remaining.

 

If you apply this theory to early 70's Australian muscle cars you see some accuracy in it. Try applying that to later model cars that are the future collectables.

 

 



#2 RallyRed

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 02:16 PM

agree with that, works most of the time.
Fly in the ointment? P76

#3 MFM

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 02:39 PM

Not sure about the P76 racing history, and I must admit I don't know a lot about them but I did experience an embarassing situation back in the 80's when I owned a 1973 GTR and had a traffic light race with one and it flogged me?? and it was a standard P76?



#4 RallyRed

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 05:25 PM

P76 limited racing, but had a fair chop in the long distance rally arena.



#5 _imj411_

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 05:46 PM

Something wrong with your GTR if it got flogged by a standard V8 P76. Should have been close, cheers Aaron

#6 rexy

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 06:23 PM

Looked at what a Force 7 is worth? If you can find one!



#7 RallyRed

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 06:29 PM

yep..that's why I said P76

#8 yel327

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 06:45 PM

P76 limited racing, but had a fair chop in the long distance rally arena.


And the engine in F5000

#9 RallyRed

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 07:08 PM

Here's a view...

https://www.carsales...TQ6ip-OBKoQyCGI

#10 MFM

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 08:22 AM

LJ GTR is a standard 202 with duel throat carby I believe whereas P76 is all alloy 4.4litre? V8 hence. P76 quarter mile time 16.7. Not sure about the GTR 400 meter times, but would imagine it would be in low 17's?



#11 yel327

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 08:49 AM

Standard 202 in LJ GTR, same as in HQ. 202S was canned when the HQ GTS was canned pre HQ volume production so there were no 2BBL 202’s.

#12 _imj411_

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 11:32 AM


LJ GTR is a standard 202 with duel throat carby I believe whereas P76 is all alloy 4.4litre? V8 hence. P76 quarter mile time 16.7. Not sure about the GTR 400 meter times, but would imagine it would be in low 17's?

I would think a LJ GTR would be capable of low 17's or maybe high 16's with 135hp and a lot more torque than a 161s and a bit more than the 173s in the late LC. Has anyone seen a test of a 173LC GTR or LJ GTR? A 202S would have been great in a LJ if only, Cheers Aaron.

Edited by imj411, 23 February 2020 - 11:40 AM.


#13 yel327

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 03:22 PM

I have road tests from memory for 202 4spd LJ. Will look in a week or so. Not very fast though as the 202 is breathless due to crappy 161 cam.

HQ GTS would have been good, 202S with 4spd and 3.55 rear axle would probably have given a standard HQ V8 GTS (253, M20 and 3.08) a run for its money up to 100km/h or thereabouts.

#14 _imj411_

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 05:27 PM

Hey Yel327, what's the story on 202S? Why was It not put into production? think that a 202S in GTR, SLR, or SS hatch would have been awesome as the base engine. HQ GTS always needed to be 253 in my opinion it just feels right. I suppose it would have had around 150hp. With a 3.36 diff ratio in a banjo equipped rear end because you wouldn't need a Salisbury in a 202S GTS it would probably been fastest in acceleration than the 253 GTS we got. Most people would have still wanted the smoother running more relaxed 253 also V8's were seen as a superior product back then, cheers Aaron.

#15 yel327

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 06:37 PM

GMH paperwork doesn’t say why they canned it. But I reckon it was because the 202S would have been close in “installed hp” to a stock 253. Go and look at the difference in power and torque between a stock HT 186 and a 186S and remember that they have the same camshaft - 130hp to 145hp. Then think of the 135hp 202 (with 161 cam). HK 186 is 126hp (bigger cam than 161), HT 186 (with 186S cam) is 130hp. So in rough figures simply adding the 186S cam to a 202 should see conservatively 10hp (jump from 161 cam to 186S cam), total 145hp. Add the 15hp gain the S gear and you have 160hp, roughly. Stock 253 with same advertised figures was 185hp.

My only assumption with HQ 202S is it would get a better exhaust than the stock 6cyl, like 186S did in HK-HG (got the V8 single system). So when the 202S and the standard 253 got the same exhaust, and the 253 got a 3.08 rear axle (2.78 auto) against the 3.55 rear axle (3.36 auto) of the 202S PLUS the 75-100kg less weight with the 6cyl and you can see what happens with acceleration. Top speed and highway cruising the 253 wins hands down, but when you have the two side by side to be tested the 202S feels like a rocket even if it had a 3.36 rear axle behind the manual.

I also think that 186S vehicle sales probably dropped after HK when an alternative engine that wasn’t 5 litres became available (the 253), in conjunction with the extra hp increase of the 202S against the 253 remaining unchanged into HQ and you can sort of see the thinking.

The real shame is the humble red 253 never really got showcased much. The 202 we all know went pretty well in the XU1. The 253 got a good run in the HQ SS where it was standard with dual exhaust and 3.36 rear axle and it was as fast as a stock HQ 308 manual (single exhaust and 3.36). Imagine if for HJ the 253 got a compression bump and bigger cam like the HJ 5.0L rather than staying as per HQ. Would have made a fictitious HJ SS a pretty decent car, let alone a 253 powered later LH. Probably wouldn’t have suffered the tiny LH dual exhaust like a 5.0L did.

#16 claysummers

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 07:42 PM

202s needs stronger diff than banjo. Don't ask.

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#17 yel327

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 05:12 AM

Not in a Torana, maybe in a Holden.

#18 yel327

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 07:28 AM

I meant to add Aaron, if the HQ GTS had made it to production that LJ GTR would have continued with the 2850S. Early LJ info and price lists show the 2850S. Because the big volume S engine (in Holden) was dropped they obviously made a financial decision to drop the 2850S and use a standard 202 in its place. My guess is the small volume of S components would have cost more per unit hence its demise once the 202S was canned.

#19 Rockoz

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 09:26 AM

My brother had a V8 4 speed P 76 back in the early 80s.

They seriously upset a lot of drivers on the road back then.

A couple of little mods, like most cars and they went even better.

He had extractors and a better air cleaner. Just basic stuff.

 

We did a track day at Amaroo in 1981.

I was in a mates Datsun 1600 in the same group as my brother and the P 76.

There was also another bloke in a 351 Falcon in the group.

The P didnt give much away to the Ford on the straight. It went around corners better than the Ford, but not as good as the Datto.

 

They were a lot better car than the media portrayed. All cars had the same little things go wrong with them, like loose screws here and there. I even had those dramas with a new VE SS. The media thought it was fun putting crap on them.

They couldnt fill oreders fast enough, as the big 3 inundated suppliers with parts requests, which were supplied to them as priority over the Leyland requests.

They didnt do their normal order and deliver as needed type thing, they stockpiled a lot at the time.

 

There were hundreds of P 76s parked up waiting for sometimes small parts for completion.

 

I actually own one at the moment and I am doing a modern resto on it.

 

Many who rubbish them have never even sat in one, let alone drive one.

They were very innovative at the time too..

 

First production car in Australia to have front discs standard.

First car to have side impact intrusion bars.

First Australian car to have the petrol tank mounted further forward to prevent problems in rear end crashes.

First Australian car to have the heat vulcanised type windscreen sealants. They had a few problems there, that were sorted before the other manufacturers used them.

First car to ave the windscreen wipers hidden a bit.

The wedge shape isnt much different to the modern cars either, but the styling wasnt anywhere near as tidy as the modern cars.

 

There is a good following for the cars, and clubs that actually bought parts back at the end of production, and also re manufacture parts as well.

Not many clubs for other marques do that sort of thing.

 

The Force 7 is probably close to being the rarest car, only surmounted by the p 76 wagon. Only 1 was built.

 

 

Cheers

 

Rob



#20 yel327

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 09:35 AM

P76 did win Wheels car of the year too if I remember correctly.

Any of the cars if that era went lots better with small mods.

#21 Redslur

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 11:06 AM

I think my VZ CV8 will be a collector for sure...mainly because I want it to be LOL....and that is if I don't sell it first  :P



#22 claysummers

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 03:06 PM

Not in a Torana, maybe in a Holden.

As long as you are gentle. Busted a few behind mild 186 m20 in 1200kg EK. Spun LSD hemispheres, shattered spider gears without hardly trying. Ten spline axles go bang.

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#23 yel327

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 03:51 PM

As long as you are gentle. Busted a few behind mild 186 m20 in 1200kg EK. Spun LSD hemispheres, shattered spider gears without hardly trying. Ten spline axles go bang.

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I get we would break them. But GMH thought they were fine behind 307 and 308 in most auto HK-HG and all 253 in HT-HG, plus almost all V8 Torana, even the most powerful ones in L34 engined cars and the 250hp 5.0L in later LH and early LX. So I have no doubt that 202S in HQ would have had banjo standard apart from cab-chassis. You could option a Salisbury in most HQ 6cyl though as a heavy duty option.

#24 claysummers

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 05:13 PM

Let's face it, the early GMH specific driveline components were never a strong point. It was a curiosity that they never bothered to stoke up the longer stroke red six for the reasons you explained. Pity for the LJ gtr they didn't do that or a 253 as you would no doubt have preferred. After that it became irrelevant. The LH had the V8 and then the blue motors came along. Still would have been nice.

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#25 yel327

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 05:35 PM

I wish they’d kept the 2850S in LJ GTR rather than a stock 202. I’d rather have seen a 4BBL 253 in HQ, and I totally understand why they didn’t build the 202S as it would have been too close to the 253 in power output.
One car I really wish had made it to production was the V8 XU1. It really would have been a game changer on the race tracks. The other two are Old Man Emu (HT GTS350 with 360hp LT1, M22 Muncie and 12 bolt posi) and the GTRX. Imagine that gorgeous GTRX with a bigger engine like a 4barrel 253 or even a 308.




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