48 replies to this topic

[yel327]

This just popped up. Not my pick of box as I’ve seen them smashed by 350’s, but good bang for the $. Sell off the other bellhousing, clutch setup etc and probably cover the freight cost. Leave the tailshaft behind.

https://www.gumtree....q-wb/1250848268

[76lxhatch]

If 4 is enough for you (no regular long trips or concerns with fuel economy) then the heavy-duty Muncie has to be hands-down winner: bang-for-buck, easy to fit and fun to drive. Definitely not a refined, smooth shifter like the Toyota but I don't see why people complain about external linkage boxes, these shift extremely well when set up right with a good shifter and you can really bang them through when the situation arises. I found the Muncie 2.52 ratios to be a very nice spread behind a 308, I wouldn't like the standard R154 ratios at all so that would be additional cost there.

 

Keeping the overall cost down can be achieved with second hand parts no matter which path you choose. Bell housing, shifter, driveshaft and clutch components can all be found in good condition with a bit of luck and patience at a tiny fraction of the new price.

[unclefestal34s]

Forgot to mention the new design Muncie from Autogear,.supplied by a mob called Midwest,.these are the brilliant in every way but pricey,..all the gears on the cluster gear are replaceable where's as before if you broke a tooth of the cluster you would have to replace the whole unit,..the are so well built ,..my close friend Ned from Hercules competition engines runs one in his small block EH holden making a genuine 650hp...

[rexy]

Both the R154 boxes I have are run behind 383 cube Holdens. Good torquey street engines.

 

One makes about 450 hp and 475 ft/lb in a relatively light LJ with 3.5 rear gearing and 255/50/15 MT ET Street drag radials.

The other makes about 490 HP and 485 ft/lb in the heavier hatch with 3.5 rear gearing and 275/40/17 MT ET Street drag radials.

 

I have done about 90,000km in 20 years on the box that’s currently in the LJ. It was a second hand import box with unknown kms on it. Never missed a beat. Still noise free and shifting sweetly despite getting intermittently flogged. The box in the hatch had been used and abused by a circuit boy racer before me and still feels like new.

 

Gearing is spot on for a street car. The 3.25 first gear with the 3.5 diff gearing makes getting away from a stop in traffic easy. The overdrive is just right to be usable at 100-110 km/h on the freeway.

 

If it’s a street car and you are making bulk torque why use a close ratio box? They are for circuit racers or low power stockers to cover their low torque or narrow torque band. 

 

If you use a box with a 2.2-2.5 first gear you had better like either the smell of slipping clutch in traffic or the buzz of the engine on the highway cruise depending on which rear ratio you chose.

 

Their only disadvantage is size.

 

 89FFC427-252A-4650-B3FB-40CA1FE67AE7.jpeg   123.27K   3 downloads

 

 9C6E49BA-2C6B-4955-9DAD-14436F864381.jpeg   110.58K   2 downloads

 

 

[dattoman]

I can land the R154 thru work for just under $3k

Theres 2 listed on those ebay adds... same ratios... just seems to be a slight difference in bellhousing to shifter dimension

Don't suppose anyone knows the measurements for an LH with Chev ?

Bellhousing face to shifter.. .and case to shifter

 

R154's below

OEM Part Number: 33030-2A600

Gear ratios:

First Gear: 3.250:1

Second Gear: 1.955:1

Third Gear: 1.310:1

Fourth Gear: 1.00:1

Fifth Gear: 0.753:1

765mm from bellhousing face to gearstick centre – 2A630 is 745mm

735mm from bellhousing face to rear of dust shield

595mm from front of gear case to gearstick centre

 

No answer from Dellow on the bellhousing kit as yet

[Toranamat69]

These bits are the upgrades for the weaker internals.

https://www.suprasto.../r154parts.html

Looks like there is an internal difference on the later new boxes.

I've got these bits to go in mine but haven't fitted them.

The 3.25 first gear is pretty good with large rear tires and a good rev range. The aftermarket 2.7 would be great but would need a diff change.

My R154 was a second hand one of unknown klm and I gave it a fairly hard life. Was getting cranky going into 1st and 2nd. I suspect I have cracked the thrust washer. I didn't force anything as that will finish them off.
It does need a rebuild now.

I think 5 speed is perfect for v8. Don't see the need for number 6

Edited by Toranamat69, 22 June 2020 - 10:29 PM.

[I'm a Red Motor fiend]

Without crunching the numbers on the ratios above, wouldn't such wide ratios see the cam drop out of its happy place each gear shift?

[76lxhatch]

I guess its somewhat a matter of preference, rexy says that a V8 has enough torque to cover a wider RPM range, I say it has enough torque that you don't need ultra-low gearing to help you take off and can have the advantage of closer gearing without any drawbacks. Personally I do find a close ratio box a lot more fun to drive especially when they're evenly spread, I found the Muncie slightly nicer in this respect than the TKO.

 

I do agree that 6 forward gears is a bit unnecessary but I'd be more interested in getting a good box, doesn't really cost you any extra (over 5 speed) and you don't have to use them all.

[claysummers]

Torquey motor don't need all them gears. Changing gears like rowing a boat. The original Saginaw was overdrive 4th gear which was s sensible combo for street and highway.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[myss427]

Sorry, having a 6 speed I would never go back to a 5 speed again, being able to cruise at 2000 around 110 kph is so nice on the ears and motor, I have 3.9s and its buzzy in 5th.

[yel327]

I only owned the one 6spd, a VY SS ute. I hated the gearbox, 6th was a waste of time unless on a Freeway, and around town I only ever used a couple of gears and mainly 4th for anything up to 80km/h. But I'd never have a manual again for a car I intended to use a lot. The 427 for my GTS327 will be a Muncie but that will be a fun car.

[Belly68]

Interesting topic, I have a question about the "Race Ready" or strengthened M21 gearbox.   For a street driven LH with about 300hp, is the "race ready" box required.   Currently running a trimatic but want to change to manual and keep it old school in a way.  

[76lxhatch]

If you're talking about the Muncie, a standard one will be fine. However they're getting harder to find especially in the close ratio options, so depends on what you can find. Still need to find a bell housing to make it work since you have an Aussie pattern block (either conversion or I believe the factory Saginaw one from HT-G will work?).

 

If you're talking Aussie 4 speed then you want to throw everything you can at it to make it last, and drive it very nicely regardless. There's nothing wrong with the design, they're basically a mirrored Muncie - but put them side by side and you'll notice one is significantly smaller than the other!

[yel327]

“M21” Saginaw will do it too, just build it with the 3spd bearings like the HT-HG GTS350 were done. But just buy a Muncie or ST10, far better box. Bellhousing is easy, just use a HT-HG one as stated above, these are what GMH used when they had an A9X optioned with ST10. Or get an aftermarket one especially if you want to rumba cable clutch.

[Belly68]

I did mean an aussie 4 speed.   Looking at ATC for one

[Shiney005]

I think with 300 horsepower, it would be worth having it machined for the big bearing kit. Even if you normally drive "easy", there will be times when you have it flat to the floor.

[Belly68]

Thanks Laurie, thats what I am trying to establish, whether it's worth spending the extra coin on the "Race Ready" aussie 4 speed or just stay with the normal one.

[rexy]

Neither is the answer. Unless you drive like miss daisy.

They are clunky and fragile so unless you are doing a stock restoration you will regret not going to a stronger box now.

[ozyozyozy]

The 4 speeds will struggle with that type of power and torque, the off the shelf t10 wont do it(been there done that)
The only 4 speeds that i know of that can reliably handle that power are the nascar stuff, straight cut, dog boxes.

TKO 5 speed, can handle the torque, dont like shifting at rpm, fitting carbon syncros to 2-5(dont do first) help but not the end fix.
Cases have been known to crack under big torque.

6 speeds shift better, should handle that sort of power. 6th gear ratio is almost a waste. Certain models do have issues with circlips. The one in the ve ute we had copped and absolute beating over the years 480rwhp LS, we had a cooler fitted with a filter to help keep the oil good.
From what i have seen these tock the majority of the boxes.

T5’s well asking alot of it, have heard of them surviving BUT the owners treated them with respect, kept shock loading to a minimum. Also heard of them breaking under much less power.
My 2 cents.

Edited by ozyozyozy, 03 July 2020 - 08:21 PM.

[dattoman]

Rumour is the 5 speed behind the 3L turbo diesel in the 2WD KUN16 Hilux is very similar in build and strength to an R154

I have one at work... so checking ratios etc

[yel327]

The V6 one should be stronger again, has more power and torque. But having said that, they seemed to have detuned the manual V6 ones as they are advertised with significantly less torque than the automatic version. Might just be a clutch thing though. They never offered the blown V6 with a manual either.

[dattoman]

The GGN15 uses essentially the same box as the KUN16

The GGN is an R150 and the KUN is an R151

The internals are mostly the same... different input , cluster shafts and 2nd and 3rd gear... but that's a ratio thing

We do lots of boxes at work and use the stronger fully splined years and do some strength mods on out boxes anyway

 

Once its apart I can do some comparisons and ratio checks

 

 

Member here has a supercharged manual GGN15 - not factory of course... but looks it... nice stock looking ute

[76lxhatch]

Just watch the ratios if you're looking at diesel and/or commercial boxes, they often have a horrible first gear

[Birch]

Muncie, better box for a big torque engine. Pretty sure you can get M20 gearing with M22 rock crusher gear pitch and the boxes aren’t too badly priced brand new from the US. Fitment is basically the same as T10. You can buy them to use TH350/‘glide yoke or TH400 yoke too.
What clutch arrangement? I’d be using a 308TH to GM manual bellhousing with cable clutch and bugger around with a UC clutch pedal. Will it be an internal or external balance stroker? Reason I ask is I’m not sure if you can run an 11” external balance flywheel in a Dellow or CRS bellhousing.
HQ Muncie speedo cable should fit. Gearbox crossmembers are available cheap and Engineered on EBay. Pretty sure if you use HQ 350 engine mount adapters the T10 or Muncie sits in the same place as they do behind a Holden V8 so just copy an A9X shifter setup. If you use HK-HG mounts the engine moves back about 3/4” so the box does too. It also sits lower a bit.

When you say 3.55 gears, do you mean a 10-bolt? A 377+ci SBC with 4spd will eat it for lunch! Especially if an LSD and 265 tyres.

If you aren’t in a hurry I can get you a photo of a setup exactly what you’d want, I just can’t get to it easily. It is an M21 Muncie that was in a Commodore behind a 308TH pattern 350 stroker. Shifter is setup to come out in a VK Aussie 4spd console. Photo will show you what it all looks like when setup to go so might help you envisage the setup. I kept this to put behind a 427 in my GTS327, plan to use it until the big block eats it and then buy a new M22.

Have a read here about new Muncie. $1895 will become something like $3000+GST though.
https://www.5speeds.com/newm22.html