31 replies to this topic

[minor miss steak]

Im upgrading to a CS 144 250 amp alternator. MSD ignition, twin electric fans, 160 watt high beam etc, etc mean I need a lot of power(140 amp), has anyone else done a similar upgrade?  Can anyone tell me if I need a resister in parralel with the alt light or does the alt light alone pass enough current to do the excitation?

I have upgraded the wiring to suit the higher amperage but any hints of anything else I need like a different top mounting bracket to go with the spacer I know I need at the bottom would be gratefully received.

[grumpy xu1]

I'd start by putting some led bulbs in the h4's so you don't need huge wiring ect. Good lights small power draw.

[minor miss steak]

Appreciate where your going Grumpy, I had thought of doing things to reduce the power draw but since I have already blown the alternator and regulator I have no choice but to replace them. I have the cs144 (a high output replacement for the 10si and 12 si) on the way and really just need help on fitting it. I seem to get one part only to find I need something else, lol. All this waiting on parts is a real pain since my LJ is my daily driver.

 

I did read the other recent article about alternator upgrades and from what I have seen in various hot rod mags and such the real output of alternators is often significantly different to what the manufacturer says (surprise, surprise, lol) and there was even one manufacturer quoting that their 140 amp alt was giving 70 amp at idle. No safety margin at all even if I do reduce my draw. Especially since I can't do anything about the major draws like the MSD and the electric fans.

 

Just regards to changing to leds in the headlights, the information I can find suggests that because the light pattern of leds is different to my halogens I would need to change the reflectors as well. I really don't know if thats true but it kinda makes sense when you look at the bulbs and the shades on the low beams in them. You might know more about it than I do though, particularly if you've fitted them.

Edited by minor miss steak, 27 May 2022 - 05:05 AM.

[Heath]

I'd rather spend a month sorting out an alternator upgrade than put LED headlights in a Torana... they look really yucky. And H4's are prime... I've found 100W high beams to be plenty. Good looking colour of light that's comfortable for eye fatigue on the highway, and you can use nice neutral lenses that look at home on the car.

 

If you must, at least check out this video unless you're the kind of person who doesn't give a frOck about blinding fellow road users.

 

Not sure about the alternator excitation, sorry. I have a single-wise MSD alternator and it needed nothing.

[Rockoz]

The standard charge lamp should be okay with the alternator.

Only time you need a resistor is if you have the wrong sized lamp in the light.

A lower wattage one for example may cause issues, but the standard lamp should be right.

Problems happen if you decide to change the indicator lamp to LED.

They need to be checked for polarity and have a resistor fitted in lots of cases.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[kudu]

The standard charge lamp should be okay with the alternator.

Only time you need a resistor is if you have the wrong sized lamp in the light.

A lower wattage one for example may cause issues, but the standard lamp should be right.

Problems happen if you decide to change the indicator lamp to LED.

They need to be checked for polarity and have a resistor fitted in lots of cases.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

 

Hi Rob,

Is this the case for front and rear indicators? I was looking at change the rear indicators to LED bulbs. Do I need to install a resistor? And if so do you know what sort and where to place it?

cheers.

[claysummers]

If you don’t change all the globes in each circuit to LED, rather than just the rear, and fit a compatible flasher can you will have issues, that is certain.


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[Rockoz]

The polarity wont be an issue for bayonet lamps.

It is only festoons and the push in type lamps that polarity becomes an issue.

As Clay has said, if you want LEDs for your indicators the best way is with an electronic flasher can that is LED compatible.

They arent expensive and solve the problem of flash rate.

 

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[rodomo]

F@4Ds are shit

LED's are shit

Electric cars are shit

 

But each to there own....................................just sayin

[claysummers]

Anyone converted their cigarette lighter to LED? 8 )


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[IanC]

I have put LED blinkers on motorcycles. And they need a resistor. Otherwise they blink way to fast.

[minor miss steak]

A little off topic guys, when it comes to lighting everyone is gonna have their own opinion and thats a good thing, be a boring place if we were all the same.

Any way, I'm running an MSD 6AL2 plus high output MSD coil, igniter electronic points, 100 watt low beam plus the twin engine fans, throw in 200 watt stereo for listening pleasure and at night in the rain I reckon I'd have to be drawing 60 amps easy at idle. All the research I've done says you can't run the alt at max and have it last. There's also a lot of people saying you can't go to big on the alt, if it fits you can use it provided your wiring is up to it. Hence I bought a 250 amp max alt.

 

Lastly, my major current hogs (lights, fans and msd) all draw direct from the alt/battery circuit (all with fuses just FYI, lol), their relays draw their switch current off the ammeter/fuse box but I was wondering if there is any mod (like something in parrallel) soI can run it all off the standard GTR ammeter without blowing it up or do I need to replace it completely to do that and if I do need a replacement, any suggestions?

[Rockoz]

Ned.

 

If you have a 250 amp alternator, then the cable coming off it would need to be the size of a normal battery cable, or close.

You can generally run any sized alternator you want, as its output is a direct result of battery voltage.

The more current you draw, the lower the battery voltage, the more the alternator produces.

It tries to keep the voltage of the system within the regulated range and produces what is needed to do so.

Simplistic terms.

The only thing stopping the alternator running at max will be heat.

Under a bonnet isnt the best spot for it.

But, as with anything electrical running below rated capacity will extend life.

 

One of my first jobs after I left school was working for what used to be called Civil Aviation Authority many years ago.

They used to design and modify all sorts of stuff for navigation and air safety.

What I learned there was they had a type of inbuilt redundancy in anything they built or repaired.

For example, if a particular component consumed 1/4 watt of power in normal operation, they installed a component capable of taking 1 watt.

4 times design redundancy.

But that is an extreme example.

 

The major drama I have come across with wiring modifications is the lack of thought going in to the cable size that feeds the parts of the system.

The second major drama is the location of any relays used in the connection of high powered bits.

 

To be effective, the relay should be as close as possible to whatever it is supplying the power to.

And, most people use the 30 amp square relays for just about everything.

To keep them reliable, you should not go anywhere near 30 amps.

 

For example.

 

My old single headlight HZ Panel Van.

 

I had 90/130W headlights and 150W driving lights.

I had 6 relays for the lights.

3 on each side mounted close to the lights.

I never had a failure, and due to having to do work at night to restore power, they sometimes ran for hours.

 

Keeping the voltage up to the lamps also increases their life. Far less failures.

 

Piss poor wiring can cause catastrophic failures.

 

Years ago I was sitting in the pub and a nice Cortina drove by pumping out loud music.

A couple hours later I got a call to go to a car in fire.

Was the Cortina.

He had picked it up earlier from getting about 15k of sound system installed and was to go to a sound off at Oran Park the next day.

The wiring for the sound system had shorted out causing the fire.

By the time we got there, nothing of the car was salvageable.

 

Fuses, or circuit breakers are a must.

And must be located properly.

The sole function of a fuse or breaker is to protect the piece of wire it is connected to.

It isnt there to protect the component it supplies.

The fuse needs to be as close to the supply as feasible.

That means near the battery for high powered stuff.

Close to the fuse box/panel in older cars is the next best spot, if taking power that already supplies the fuse box/panel.

The supply to the fuse box/panel is usually already adequately protected, however the cable supplying it may not be sufficient to supply anything additional.

 

Sorry for the rant, but hope it helps someone thinking about electrics.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[minor miss steak]

Thats not a rant, its sound advice.

 

In preparation for the new alternator I replaced the original earth to block cable (negative battery cable) and then ran a another similar cable from the block to the body (the original 80 amp wire straight off the battery terminal doesn't cut it). I've intalled another battery cable from the positive terminal to go to the alternator positive, although I did consider running it to the starter motor instead (it would look a bit cleaner than the two cables off the positive). The headlights and fans all have their relays (one relay for each item all on 50 amp wire) fitted to the front of the engine bay next to the radiator to keep the feeding power wires as short as possible and the relays I used all have built in replaceable 30 amp fuses. The relay switching power wires however, do feed off the fuse board after the fuse. I have also run the voltage sensing wire (the new alt has an internal regulator) to the fuse box so as to keep the voltage high enought to account for any loss through the system and wires but until I have it all running I can't say what the operational battery voltage will be exactly. I believe anything up to about 15 volts is acceptable but I will listen if anyone does have a different opinion. I may not act on it, but I will listen, lol.

 

After what you've said though Rob,I think perhaps I should run a new wire along side the original alt to ammeter wire since I was going to keep that connected as well as the new alt to battery cable.

Do you think 50 amp wire would be sufficient for that or should I go to 80 amp?

By dead reckoning the actual feed through the fuse board couldm't ever peak at more than about 40 to 50 amps which is why I considered just using the original alt to ammeter connection in concert with the new alternator to battery cable.

 

In respect to what I said earlier about powering everything through the ammeter, I think just installing a voltmeter might be a better way to keep an eye on the charging circuit without the need to put extra load on the original wiring or fusebox.

[Rockoz]

Ammeters are a PITA.

What exactly do you want them to indicate?

Personally I would be wanting to measure the alternator output.

But, in your case the meter may not be capable, and it would require a 125 amp lead from the alternator to the gauge then back to the battery, or perhaps the starter then the battery.

Where they are installed in the circuit doesnt make a huge amount of sense electrically.

But that is my opinion.

A voltmeter would be a far better alternative in my opinion.

Ideal voltage is 13.8 volts. But 14.2 volts is usual with most regulators.

 

The system voltage is actually a bit of a trade off between battery efficiency and the problem of gassing up when charging.

The lead acid battery can go to 18 volts from memory due to its composition.

However they start to gas a lot around that point and under bonnet corrosion becomes a real issue as hydrogen gas mixed with sulphuric acid fumes starts coating everything. Then the need to top up the battery becomes a regular job that is required, plus cleaning everything down to prevent corrosion.

 

Running control circuitry from the original fuse box wont be an issue as there is little power required to drive a relay.

 

If your relays with fuses are easily accessible then a fuse at the relay is okay.

However, I would probably install a fusible link at the connection point of the main power to the relays, to protect the cable from there to the relays.

 

The original fusible link from the starter to the fuse box from memory is rated at about 90 amps.

By now, it is likely well oxidised if it is original and may only pass 60 amps maybe without being a problem.

That really shouldnt be a huge issue though, but something to think about.

 

A fuse is designed to be short circuit protection primarily.

It will however blow under extended over current, but could take a while to actually blow.

Lots of bad stuff can happen in that time.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[RallyRed]

Agree re fuseable links.
Readily available in various current ratings.
Could save your car from a hell fire one day.
Re ammeter....140amp ( possible) circuit would suggest to me that you are maybe getting into shunt territory?.
i.e. a shunt mounted near the alternator, scales something like 0 - 140 amps =
0 - 10 volts. Then you just use normal size wiring to the ammeter ( which is now just a 0-10v voltmrter, but the face says 0 -140,amps.
Very common in industry.etc

[minor miss steak]

The fusable link off the starter motor brobably should be replaced. Can you tell me exactly where it is placed and what I should be looking for?

Are you saying that the original alternator to ammeter connection goes via the starter motor?

 

The optima yellow top battery I have (D34) appears to be a sealed unit ( it must have a breather somewhere though, right?) and the battery guy said it was good to about 16.5 volts all day long. I can tell you rests at 12.7 volts.

 

 The ammeter did start acting weird and that is one of the things that clued me to charging issue but yes, the voltmeter is a safer easier option. Does anyone know of dual purpose guages that would allow me to fit a voltmeter in the GTR instrument panel? I can't seem to find an ammeter/voltmeter combination but I have seen an oil pressure/ water temp combination that might allow me to replace the water temp guage with a voltmeter.

Any suggestions of what to buy and what to avoid would be deeply appreciated as has all the help given so far.

 

What should be a small job(two bolts and three wires) has already turned into a Ben Hurr epic and without help could easily be disasterous. This stuff is really not something to play with, do it right the first time and over engineer stuff to make it last, that is why these old girls are still around in droves after 50 years and early model commadores are like hens teeth.

[Rockoz]

Just bypass the ammeter connections and fit a 50mm Voltmeter.

 

The fusible link on Holdens is the first bit of wire that comes off the starter motor connection.

It usually has a nice ring terminal and is an inch or two long.

You will notice it as it has softer insulation usually and is a bit more flexible than the wire it joins to.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[minor miss steak]

Okay guys, heres where the fun starts. Fitted the cs144 alternator yesterday. No alt/gen light.

 

I have disconnected the external regulator, the connector on it has two wires on one female and one wire on the other two. The two wire female has one brown and one that looks blue but I thought it is supposed to be the alt/gen light wire. Because they are already connected at the plug I just connected the alternator end to the right connector on the alternator and did nothing on the regulator end.  I just left all the regulator plugs disconnected since the only wire I need to make use of is the alt/gen light right?.

 

Is there a way to check to make sure the colours are correct and I have the right wire like connecting it to earth with the ignition on should make the light glow right? I have a multimeter so any reading I could make that could tell me?

 

Next issue, but not a major one. The top alternator bracket is made to fit an 8mm top alt bolt and the new bolt is 10 mm so I  opened it up a bit with a file, not a prob because I only needed a wisker off it but after I put the alternator in I found that tensioning the fan belt left me right at the end of the slot. For the long term I will need a longer top bracket, any ideas other than fabricating a new one myself or having one made for me. Do the blue or black motors use a longer bracket?

[Rockoz]

Turn ignition on.

Carefully short one of the wires to the regulator at a time.

One will make the charge lamp glow.

Not sure of your alternator, but does it have an inbuilt regulator?

 

Have you thought about getting a shorter belt?

Or is the alternator pulley a smaller diameter than the one it is replacing?

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[Toranamat69]

I love this style alt adjuster if you aren't after original look.

https://www.ebay.com...zwaAjaKEALw_wcB

I assume you are talking holden 6 cylinder? If so, these top brackets break when engine revved hard which is why xu1s doubled up the bracket thickness.

I don't know if blue or black had longer bracket but if you do make your own, I'd go thicker gauge than original.

Matt

[minor miss steak]

Okay. Thanks for the last two ideas. Turns out the pigtail (short adapter/connecter wiring) has a 550ohm resister on the connection for the alt light circuit (I didn't see it because the adapter has split tube covering the wires). Everything I can find says that resister should be on the connector for the ignition switch connection used in cars without an alt light. Not suprising that the light didn't come on, all the voltage would be dropped on the resister rather than the light. I did have everything connected right, just had to pull it all apart to find that out, bloody annoying that the alt was shipped with an incorrect adapter. At least (after some argument) the seller has agreed to send out a replacement. Good lesson in fault testing every part of the wiring prior to putting it all together and taping it up, lol. Even brand new wire can have a break in it somewhere, I fould that out the hard way on earlier mods.

 

I've decided a new top bracket is a must, unfortunately that aeroflow bracket doesn't have holes big enough for the alternators top 10mm bolt and I'm not sure if the block mount end would fit comfortably behind the fan pulley but I do like the design, I like the suggestion of using thicker steel for the bracket and that is something I will definately do. That bracket is just made of mild steel isn't it?

 

Also, yes I've got a red six and yes the cs144 (small block chev alt) does have a slightly smaller pulley. It is also a half inch wider hole spacing although the bodies physical dimentions are all but the same as the original alt. It is probably not bad that the bracket needs to be a bit longer since at the limit of the adjustment I have now there is only about a half inch between the corner of the alt and the extractors (same it was original alt) and if I can make it further away  that would be better.

 

So, all up what should have been a very simple mod/replacement , a three wire two bolt job has ended up costing around $800 (alternator, bolts, spacers, cables, wiring, fuses) and taken a month and a half, rofl. Something for anyone contemplating doing this to think about.

[minor miss steak]

Also internal regulator.

Edited by minor miss steak, 02 June 2022 - 07:38 AM.

[Rockoz]

560 ohm resistor is what we used to fit in series with the older type LEDs to make them work.

470 or 560 depending on the brightness you wanted.

Seems that whoever did that job wasnt very clued up on how to get an alternator working.

Or, it was for some other obscure purpose.

 

Older cars will often have some 'interesting' bits of electrical work done to them.

 

With what you are doing, my next bit of advice would be to get yourself a decent multimeter.

For what you are doing, Jaycar have a great little unit that is reasonably priced.

It is a combination multimeter and AC/DC clamp ammeter.

For less than 100 bucks last time I looked, it does the job of a unit costing above 1000 bucks.

I have bought a couple of them over the years. 

If you look after them, they last pretty well.

They may not be 100% accurate, but they are close. Close enough for auto work anyway.

You can use it to measure the current draw on individual circuits of there is enough loose wire to hook it over.

Doesnt need a whole lot.

And it will measure what your alternator is pumping out without drama.

An invaluable tool when chasing down electrical gremlins.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[minor miss steak]

The adapter/connecter is what came from the manufacturer with the alternator. I think it was originally for a chevy Buick, late 70's early 80's which I thought would be a bit early for a LED but I don't know anything much about american stuff beyond the fact that a lot of the LX A9X's used to race with a chev 307 rather than the holden 308.

 

From what I've seen on american hot rod pages talking about these conversions and the various alternator connectors available of this type for sale, they only use the resistor in the no alt light versions and as I said that should go to a different connector on the alternator. Even the manufacturer site suggests that its not connected right although it doesn't specifically say that they use a resistor in either connection, just that this particular CS144 needs an excitation current, that its not an alternator suitable for a one wire setup although they do manufacture those as well. Certainly wouldn't be the first time I've been shipped the wrong part in a kit, lol.

 

The multimeter suggestion is a great idea and they are a worthwhile addition to any tool kit but I do already have a digital multimeter that, whilst its designed primarily for electronics certainly seems to work alright for auto electrics. It does Volts, amps, ohms and some other stuff and is about as accurate as you can get as long as you work within the right ranges. Unfortunately its scales go staight from up to 200 ohm's to up to 2k ohm's so measuring 550 ohms on the 2k ohms scale is not hugely accurate. The idea of being able to clamp read current would be bloody handy too so I will certainly give replacing it some thought.

 

I spoke to a metal seller/fabricator and we decided that the new top bracket should come out of 350 grade plate steel so I'm hoping that it will be plenty strong enough for what I want it for.

 

I guess my big concern now is will the current through the alt light be to much for the excitation circuit and burn out the new alternator although in the real world I suppose there isn't a huge difference between the sort of resistances we are talking about.

 

Any thoughts Rob?