Gday everyone.
We've just begun having some problems with simmo's excel.
Now its a 99 model Hyundai excel, 1.5L powerhouse.....
Before i get the "sell it.. buy a torry" comments the car was bought new and has been looked after and really hasnt given us ANY greif till now!
OK... So simmo takes it to work monday morning.. and 20 minutes into the drive ( and near central railway station) it cooks... to the point of steam blowing out...
Got it home and found that the fans are not working... Either of them!
I tried to jump them by putting a wire direct to the terminals and to the battery and neither of them turned at all. Not even a spark at the battery terminal!
I'm guessing the fan motors are shot.
I then measured voltage at the connector ( incoming from the loom) at the air con fan. ( turned on aircon.. and measured bvoltage at connector) found it to be 14.4V!!!
Measured this at the battery too.
My concern is that the voltage regulator in the altenator has died giving full voltage to all components.. Causing the fans to burn out.
Can anyone confirm this?
Ive checked that no fuses are burnt out, but i cannot figure out how to get the relays to come out of the relay box!! Ive ripped the "lid" off one of the relays already... thankfully they just clip back on!!
Any help appreciated!
OT: Help needed With Hyundai Excel
Started by
_Tiny_
, Nov 02 2006 09:55 AM
15 replies to this topic
#1
Tiny
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Posted 02 November 2006 - 09:55 AM
#2
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Posted 02 November 2006 - 09:05 PM
Im assuming this was with the motor running? 14.4V is what you should see if there is no current being drawn through the fans, should drop about half a volt if the fans are going. The fans are designed to run at full voltage as are most things in the car, except for all the delicate electronic gadgets that would need some form of lower voltage regulation.
When you say you jumped the motors, there is only two wires going to each fan and you connected them straight to the battery and nothing happened? sounds like they are both shot........but it would seem unlikely two of them would fail together........or perhaps one failed a while ago and it has been surviving on one and it has now just failed.
When you say you jumped the motors, there is only two wires going to each fan and you connected them straight to the battery and nothing happened? sounds like they are both shot........but it would seem unlikely two of them would fail together........or perhaps one failed a while ago and it has been surviving on one and it has now just failed.
Edited by devilsadvocate, 02 November 2006 - 09:07 PM.
#3
MRLXSS
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Posted 02 November 2006 - 09:12 PM
that sounds like a reasonable answer. one could have went a long time ago, and the extra load on the single one has caused it to die over time as well.sounds like they are both shot........but it would seem unlikely two of them would fail together........or perhaps one failed a while ago and it has been surviving on one and it has now just failed.
is there anyway you can take it apart to see if its shagged? are they a similar setup to a davis craig setup? (two wires come off each fan?)
#4
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Posted 02 November 2006 - 09:17 PM
The last time I had a regulator stuck on it cooked the battery by overcharging (cooking battery acid really stinks) but everything else was fine as the voltage is still the same. Do the fans share an earth? If so I'd check that.
#5
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Posted 02 November 2006 - 09:33 PM
unfortunately the later model excels are a complex bit of gear...more than they should be anyway.
I'm willing to bet if you probe both wires to the fan they will both have 14.4 volts..no potential difference..it will be the ECU that switches the earth..and the coolant temp sensor that tells the ECU when to do it.
I would check fuse again (probe both sides of fuse) and locate which relay operates the fans...then find the Coolant temp sensor..check connection.
after that..well I wish it was in front of me....Its been a good 5 yrs since i have been under the bonnet of an excel.
I'm willing to bet if you probe both wires to the fan they will both have 14.4 volts..no potential difference..it will be the ECU that switches the earth..and the coolant temp sensor that tells the ECU when to do it.
I would check fuse again (probe both sides of fuse) and locate which relay operates the fans...then find the Coolant temp sensor..check connection.
after that..well I wish it was in front of me....Its been a good 5 yrs since i have been under the bonnet of an excel.
#6
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Posted 02 November 2006 - 10:56 PM
You could be right with your diagnosis there FastEH, thats why I was after some confirmation of exactly what was connected to what when the fan motors were tested.
I dont know about what is under the bonnet of an excel specifically, however, typically the ecu will control a high powered device by earthing the relay of the device(not the device itself) whether the relay then connects one side of the fan to the battery, or connects the other side to earth can be chosen to suit, however, having the relay switch to earth would always require a live wire going all the way to the fan and back to the relay, whilst this not going to be an electrocution risk....(as in the same way an old power point could be wired with the switch in the neutral wire) its certainly got more potential to cause problems when people are poking around with the wiring etc, than the other way around.........
I dont know about what is under the bonnet of an excel specifically, however, typically the ecu will control a high powered device by earthing the relay of the device(not the device itself) whether the relay then connects one side of the fan to the battery, or connects the other side to earth can be chosen to suit, however, having the relay switch to earth would always require a live wire going all the way to the fan and back to the relay, whilst this not going to be an electrocution risk....(as in the same way an old power point could be wired with the switch in the neutral wire) its certainly got more potential to cause problems when people are poking around with the wiring etc, than the other way around.........
#7
TerrA LX
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Posted 02 November 2006 - 11:27 PM
get the alt/reg checked quick smart just incase, a mate's sister has one and it fryed a battery then a few other things after the new battery went in inc the wiper at the column and one or two other things.
they must be real cnuts as it went back to the auto lecky a few times, so maybe ask them first if they had excel probs
they must be real cnuts as it went back to the auto lecky a few times, so maybe ask them first if they had excel probs
#8
Tiny
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 02:02 PM
Many thanks for the replies gentlemen!
DA: The way you read my gobbldygook above was 100% correct.. I disconnected the fans at their connector and put wires directly to the battery and got nothing! I'm leaning towards shot fan motors. I tested the voltage with the motor running at the disconnected fan connectors.
FastEH: Is there a trick to getting the damn relays out? I cant seem to get them out of the holder!! Therefore i havent been able to test these yet!
Ive spoken with 2 Hyundai tenchicans and they both tell me that the fan motors are a common problem and there are revised fan motors availible from hyundai. I have JUST priced them... and for the radiator fan motor alone its $202.75 + GST.. and for the aircon fan motor its 270.75+GST!!!
I think i need a becks and a lie down...
Thanks again for the tips.. if i can get these relays out to test them i will do that before lashing out and smoking teh credit card for a couple of fan motors!!
Thanks to everyone!
DA: The way you read my gobbldygook above was 100% correct.. I disconnected the fans at their connector and put wires directly to the battery and got nothing! I'm leaning towards shot fan motors. I tested the voltage with the motor running at the disconnected fan connectors.
FastEH: Is there a trick to getting the damn relays out? I cant seem to get them out of the holder!! Therefore i havent been able to test these yet!
Ive spoken with 2 Hyundai tenchicans and they both tell me that the fan motors are a common problem and there are revised fan motors availible from hyundai. I have JUST priced them... and for the radiator fan motor alone its $202.75 + GST.. and for the aircon fan motor its 270.75+GST!!!
I think i need a becks and a lie down...
Thanks again for the tips.. if i can get these relays out to test them i will do that before lashing out and smoking teh credit card for a couple of fan motors!!
Thanks to everyone!
#9
Tiny
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 02:04 PM
Just to confirm, I turned the A/C on ( which activates the AC fan) and tested the voltage therewith the engine running.
I didnt allow the engine to heat up to test the radiator fan but i did try to bypass everything and test the motor by giving it 12V from the battery.
Cheers!
I didnt allow the engine to heat up to test the radiator fan but i did try to bypass everything and test the motor by giving it 12V from the battery.
Cheers!
#10
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 09:32 PM
Ok......so the voltage on the connector goes from 0 to 14V when the aircon is switched on?, that would imply your relays are functioning. You tried reversing the connections of the motor when testing at the battery, could have it back to front and there could be diode protection to prevent it operating at reverse polarity.
If that is so, it would appear that pulling relays etc is not going to achieve anything. To confirm, put a test lamp across the connectors if it goes on and off when you trigger the air then the circuit must be okay. To double check that it will run full power, wire in another fan or a high powered testlamp (50W spotlight) or similar.
Do the fans spin easily by hand? Any burnt smell at all?
Original parts replacement price ouch! Id be looking at anthing else that might fit, couldnt end up being too much worse than the originals!
If that is so, it would appear that pulling relays etc is not going to achieve anything. To confirm, put a test lamp across the connectors if it goes on and off when you trigger the air then the circuit must be okay. To double check that it will run full power, wire in another fan or a high powered testlamp (50W spotlight) or similar.
Do the fans spin easily by hand? Any burnt smell at all?
Original parts replacement price ouch! Id be looking at anthing else that might fit, couldnt end up being too much worse than the originals!
#11
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Posted 03 November 2006 - 09:33 PM
Ok......so the voltage on the connector goes from 0 to 14V when the aircon is switched on?, that would imply your relays are functioning. You tried reversing the connections of the motor when testing at the battery, could have it back to front and there could be diode protection to prevent it operating at reverse polarity.
If that is so, it would appear that pulling relays etc is not going to achieve anything. To confirm, put a test lamp across the connectors if it goes on and off when you trigger the air then the circuit must be okay. To double check that it will run full power, wire in another fan or a high powered testlamp (50W spotlight) or similar.
Do the fans spin easily by hand? Any burnt smell at all?
Original parts replacement price ouch! Id be looking at anthing else that might fit, couldnt end up being too much worse than the originals!
If that is so, it would appear that pulling relays etc is not going to achieve anything. To confirm, put a test lamp across the connectors if it goes on and off when you trigger the air then the circuit must be okay. To double check that it will run full power, wire in another fan or a high powered testlamp (50W spotlight) or similar.
Do the fans spin easily by hand? Any burnt smell at all?
Original parts replacement price ouch! Id be looking at anthing else that might fit, couldnt end up being too much worse than the originals!
#12
Tiny
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Posted 04 November 2006 - 08:46 AM
Unfortunately i was by myself while doing these tests, So i had to turn the A/C on ( to trigger that fan) and then grab the trusty multi meter and go for broke!
I tested 14.4V at the connector with engine running which as you said proves to me that everything up to that point is fine ( voltage is getting TO the fans.. but theyre not doing anything with it!).
Ive spoken to 2 Hyundai mechanics who say that motors are a very common problem with these, and also that the voltage is within normal tollerance for that model AND that there is a revised fan motor to stop this problem occuring again.
I'm going to "Bash the plastic" because i simply cant wait to try and find aftermarket replacements and the car has to be running again ASAP.
The fans do spin easily by hand and theres no detecable burnt smell.
Thanks for the tips DA!
I tested 14.4V at the connector with engine running which as you said proves to me that everything up to that point is fine ( voltage is getting TO the fans.. but theyre not doing anything with it!).
Ive spoken to 2 Hyundai mechanics who say that motors are a very common problem with these, and also that the voltage is within normal tollerance for that model AND that there is a revised fan motor to stop this problem occuring again.
I'm going to "Bash the plastic" because i simply cant wait to try and find aftermarket replacements and the car has to be running again ASAP.
The fans do spin easily by hand and theres no detecable burnt smell.
Thanks for the tips DA!
#13
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Posted 04 November 2006 - 09:26 AM
Wonder if you can just run a new fan setup using secondhand fans Tiny? Hope the excel is up and running soon!
#14
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Posted 04 November 2006 - 02:01 PM
Well, I hope there isnt any hidden suprises when you go to fit the fans..I tested 14.4V at the connector with engine running which as you said proves to me that everything up to that point is fine ( voltage is getting TO the fans.. but theyre not doing anything with it!).
Its not clear from ^, but you did test that the voltage dropped to zero when you switched the air off with the engine running?
#15
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Posted 04 November 2006 - 02:23 PM
Tiny, there should be HEAPS of Excels at the wreckers ( and for a very good reason 
). Second hand fans should come with a 30 day warranty, or ask for them to be tested there.
). Second hand fans should come with a 30 day warranty, or ask for them to be tested there.
#16
Tiny
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Posted 04 November 2006 - 03:22 PM
Thanks sean! I really dont want to buggerise around trying to fit up something to make it work... Spend 5 hours making stuff fit to save $100 in fans! (if you can see my logic!)
DA: Thankfully i havent found any surprises! Ive just fitted up the replacement fan and fan motor and everything seems fine thus far! I'm buying replacement radiator hoses and of course more coolant tomorrow just as an added measure of safety ( Hey i'm here doing em.. why scrimp now!!)
I didnt check voltage when turning the A/C off with engine running, I didnt check that at all.
Chop: I had a really good think about this option and the reason i didnt go for it was that if this is a known problem then A) the wreckers are likely to have few fans from all the people like me wanting them...
possibly the cars that are there could have either the same problem ( as you said i COULD test it.. but how long it would last is anybody's guess) and C) i really need the car to be drivable again ASAP!
I went to Peter Warren at Warwick Farm and spoke with a guy from their parts dept. I asked for replacement motors for these fans. He was able to tell me that a motor for the A/C fan was $270... BUT a complete replacement unit was only $160!! Saved me just over $100!!
I was really grateful that he steered me in the right direction!
Anyhow, When i fitted the new fans ( removed the radiator.. WAAAAY easier), I found that the A/C fan was defintiely SHOT.. you can hear the windings touch when you spin the blades! and i took the Radiator motor and with its leads touched it directly to the battery and got 1 revolution out of it! So I'm fairly confidene we've got the problem licked!
Just hope no other damage has been done... Will be doing a cooling system flush and putting in new coolant along with the new hoses and fingers crossed she'll be ok!
Thanks again for all teh advise and assistance!
DA: Thankfully i havent found any surprises! Ive just fitted up the replacement fan and fan motor and everything seems fine thus far! I'm buying replacement radiator hoses and of course more coolant tomorrow just as an added measure of safety ( Hey i'm here doing em.. why scrimp now!!)
I didnt check voltage when turning the A/C off with engine running, I didnt check that at all.
Chop: I had a really good think about this option and the reason i didnt go for it was that if this is a known problem then A) the wreckers are likely to have few fans from all the people like me wanting them...
possibly the cars that are there could have either the same problem ( as you said i COULD test it.. but how long it would last is anybody's guess) and C) i really need the car to be drivable again ASAP!I went to Peter Warren at Warwick Farm and spoke with a guy from their parts dept. I asked for replacement motors for these fans. He was able to tell me that a motor for the A/C fan was $270... BUT a complete replacement unit was only $160!! Saved me just over $100!!
I was really grateful that he steered me in the right direction!
Anyhow, When i fitted the new fans ( removed the radiator.. WAAAAY easier), I found that the A/C fan was defintiely SHOT.. you can hear the windings touch when you spin the blades! and i took the Radiator motor and with its leads touched it directly to the battery and got 1 revolution out of it! So I'm fairly confidene we've got the problem licked!
Just hope no other damage has been done... Will be doing a cooling system flush and putting in new coolant along with the new hoses and fingers crossed she'll be ok!
Thanks again for all teh advise and assistance!
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