Hey ppl,
Having a slight ignition problem with my V8 LH. Every so often I will turn the key and nothing happens. Now we are talking about (as far as I can figure) a random event. I can stop the car at a servo and fill up, come back after paying and it won't start. I can go somewhere, leave it for an hour come out and it won't start. We have accessories but when I turn the key for ignition there is nothing but a click. It will generally not work for about an hour or so and then suddenly, when I try it, it will just fire beautifully. However, like I said, its intermitant. My theory was that it was heat related, so I took it for long drives in the heat and couldn't get it to do it. It hasn't happened for 2 or 3 weeks now all of a sudden it has happened 3 times in the past 2 days, but not all in a row, it worked fine all Saturday!!
So, we have eletronic ignition and a 3 point immobiliser. At first I thought it was neutral safety switch but I can not touch the shifter at all and it will start the hour later. Possibly immobiliser, but the eletric fuel pump comes on fine at accessories. But obviously a power problem. Are we talking bad connection at ingition barrel or at the starter motor. If it is a loose wire then why can I sit in the car for an hour and then it will just fire without me touching anything. Is it heat related, where a rely or something heats up and I have to wait for it to cool down.
I havn't got a multi-meter so havn't tested power to starter motor etc. when it plays up but was wanting some ppls ideas before I start looking again.
Cheers in advance,
Liam.
Troubleshooting Ignition Problem
Started by
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, Jan 30 2006 08:31 PM
32 replies to this topic
#2
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 30 January 2006 - 09:23 PM
Ignition, or starter? Im assuming it wont turn over,starter. Im guessing, as there is not much to go on here, other than click?: either contacts on ign switch, or solenoid connection on starter needs tightening, the braided wire, it can either not work depending on a huge range of factors. Have you gone under the bonnet and given the solenoid a few whacks with something hard when this problem occurs?
#3
_Jewboy_
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Posted 30 January 2006 - 11:59 PM
I have a same prob with mine. I believe it is the immobiliser since you can still short the starter to start the car. I haven't fixed it properly but i've fitted a remote starter switch so i can start the car without crawling under (also helps when tuning/fixing the engine). On my car i had a grommet missing on the firewall and hot air was blowing through and just so happens to be where the immobiliser is and i think it might be cooked. Another thing to check is to see if the actual switch on the column is adjusted properly and the rod reaches all the way.
#4
rodomo
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Posted 30 January 2006 - 11:59 PM
Worn/sticky brushes in starter can also cause this fault.
RACV MAN
RACV MAN
#5
rodomo
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Posted 31 January 2006 - 12:01 AM
Immobilisers, another can of worms!
RACV MAN
RACV MAN
#6
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Posted 31 January 2006 - 05:54 PM
Hey,
Point 1 - Eletrics are not my strong point.
Point 2 - First step was to check starter motor that all wires were connected etc.
and seems o.k
Point 3 - Have checked immobiliser also and can't see anything obvious amis
(see Point 1). Eletric fuel pump (one of the 3 points) still works fine when
button is pushed so running under assumption not imm - unless of course
one part is broken and the others not.
Point 4 - Initial trials centered around neutral safety switch and re-securing the
shifter seemed to fix the prob until it has just re-appeared a couple of
weeks later. So no, I havn't done any work with the wiring, starter
solenoid etc. in the broken position as yet.
Point 5 - The starter only has 1000 odd k's on it so I would be dissappointed if it
was worn brushes.
I think I will get back under and look at the starter and solenoid properly, which I have been avoiding because it means removing the extractors and see if that might stop the prob. Can only tell by driving it and getting stranded somewhere is the only problem
Thanks guys,
Point 1 - Eletrics are not my strong point.
Point 2 - First step was to check starter motor that all wires were connected etc.
and seems o.k
Point 3 - Have checked immobiliser also and can't see anything obvious amis
(see Point 1). Eletric fuel pump (one of the 3 points) still works fine when
button is pushed so running under assumption not imm - unless of course
one part is broken and the others not.
Point 4 - Initial trials centered around neutral safety switch and re-securing the
shifter seemed to fix the prob until it has just re-appeared a couple of
weeks later. So no, I havn't done any work with the wiring, starter
solenoid etc. in the broken position as yet.
Point 5 - The starter only has 1000 odd k's on it so I would be dissappointed if it
was worn brushes.
I think I will get back under and look at the starter and solenoid properly, which I have been avoiding because it means removing the extractors and see if that might stop the prob. Can only tell by driving it and getting stranded somewhere is the only problem
Thanks guys,
#7
boomfunk
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Posted 31 January 2006 - 06:42 PM
My v8 torana and calais used to do this, and it was really a pain in the ar*se
What l ended up doing after to speaking to an Auto elec was puting a relay in the starting system, l didnt beleive it would work when he told me but after l did it never ever had a problem since.
So what l did was put a 4 terminal relay and it goes for the purple wire on the starter, and power from the battery and then earth then the last outlet on the relay goes to the starter for the purple..
What this does is boosts the power for the starter on the purple wire side, you may not beleive it but l tell you l nearly pulled my hair out trying to figure out what the problem was and this fixed it... never again has it had a problem and that was around 4 yrs ago
I changed starters, battery cables, wires, everything and nothing helped only this....
What l ended up doing after to speaking to an Auto elec was puting a relay in the starting system, l didnt beleive it would work when he told me but after l did it never ever had a problem since.
So what l did was put a 4 terminal relay and it goes for the purple wire on the starter, and power from the battery and then earth then the last outlet on the relay goes to the starter for the purple..
What this does is boosts the power for the starter on the purple wire side, you may not beleive it but l tell you l nearly pulled my hair out trying to figure out what the problem was and this fixed it... never again has it had a problem and that was around 4 yrs ago
I changed starters, battery cables, wires, everything and nothing helped only this....
#8
rodomo
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Posted 31 January 2006 - 07:05 PM
Hi,
When your under it disconnect the solenoid wire and check for battery voltage (what you read across your battery mius no more than 1.5 volts) to the wire using a volt meter. If its down you have a voltage drop through your wiring and/switches/immobiliser relay?
RACV MAN
When your under it disconnect the solenoid wire and check for battery voltage (what you read across your battery mius no more than 1.5 volts) to the wire using a volt meter. If its down you have a voltage drop through your wiring and/switches/immobiliser relay?
RACV MAN
#9
barny_lx
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Posted 31 January 2006 - 08:10 PM
boomfunk i know exactly what your talking about! and i rekcon it may be what liams car needs.
I call them hot start relays , my advice would be to liam to give it a gao, they cost liek $10 to make , and could fix it for good!
I call them hot start relays , my advice would be to liam to give it a gao, they cost liek $10 to make , and could fix it for good!
#10
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Posted 31 January 2006 - 08:18 PM
For a relay to have any positive effect on the starter wire, one would have to suspect that the contacts on the ignition switch are suspect and attention would best be diverted there.
For me, relays are just something else to go wrong.
For me, relays are just something else to go wrong.
#11
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Posted 01 February 2006 - 08:04 AM
Another thing to check is to see if the actual switch on the column is adjusted properly and the rod reaches all the way.
This is a common cause of frustration.
If a relay on the solenoid wire (purple) fixes the problem you should really investigate why it has such a voltage drop (will probably be the start inhibit switch).
Just my 2c
#12
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Posted 01 February 2006 - 09:55 AM
I had da same prob but mines in the tranny (auto) I have to sometimes not allways hold the push the shifter ford (towards top/park) 4 it to start ???
#13
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Posted 01 February 2006 - 04:03 PM
Gee, sounds like its a much more common thing than I expected. If such a relay setup as is suggested fixes the problem then that is good, but I would like to get to the actual source of the problem and deal with it rather than just bypass it so to speak.
So if we talk as if the problem is the ignition switch then we are talking virgin ground for me, cos I've never had to touch one before. I'm obviously going to have to drop the coloumn to see anything at all, but what is it I should be looking for. Is there going to be loose wiring, a relay somewhere, or should I just replace the switch straight off?
Steve, your starting problem would be the neutral safety switch. You should be able to take off the console and make some adjustment on the shifter to ensure that contact is made in 'normal' park position.
Peace,
So if we talk as if the problem is the ignition switch then we are talking virgin ground for me, cos I've never had to touch one before. I'm obviously going to have to drop the coloumn to see anything at all, but what is it I should be looking for. Is there going to be loose wiring, a relay somewhere, or should I just replace the switch straight off?
Steve, your starting problem would be the neutral safety switch. You should be able to take off the console and make some adjustment on the shifter to ensure that contact is made in 'normal' park position.
Peace,
#15
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Posted 01 February 2006 - 07:25 PM
Hi dude, I agree exactly with what boomfunk said - fit a relay into the starter circuit. I have been recommended this by auto-elec's and many other people in the industry too, and we always fit this setup to all our cars and have never had these sorts of problems. I've helped a few mates set them up too and it's fixed their issues as well. It's such a cheap easy way to make sure your starter solenoid/wire/ignition switch does not suffer from heat saturation (very, very common on these cars now that all the wiring and stuff is pushing 30 years old).
Of course if you wanted to avoid using a relay, suss out all the various components involved and make sure everything is A1, upgrade all the wiring etc. But for less than $10, you can't go wrong with a relay! 95% chance this will permanently fix your problem.
PS. Must catch up soon!
PPS. Are you coming to the Forum drag day at Heathcote?? Would like to hear from you in that topic under Car Events if you are!
Cheers mate,
Brett.
Of course if you wanted to avoid using a relay, suss out all the various components involved and make sure everything is A1, upgrade all the wiring etc. But for less than $10, you can't go wrong with a relay! 95% chance this will permanently fix your problem.
PS. Must catch up soon!
PPS. Are you coming to the Forum drag day at Heathcote?? Would like to hear from you in that topic under Car Events if you are!
Cheers mate,
Brett.
Edited by LXCHEV, 01 February 2006 - 07:26 PM.
#16
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Posted 03 February 2006 - 12:29 PM
Don't fit a relay - fix the damn problem. All fitting a relay does is to drop the amount of current that is needed to pass through the ignition switch and starter solenoid wiring. Sure, it will work if the ignition switch and/or wiring is the problem, but the relay still relies on this wiring to provide it with power to energise. What are you going to do if and when the switch or wiring gets worse, and can't even fire up a relay?
The standard Holden ignition switch and starter solenoid wiring is definitely big enough to supply the required current when it is in good condition. Dropping the amount of current that it supplies (eg by fitting a relay) can actually make things worse, as the ignition switch contacts can be cleaned by having a reasonable current passed through them. Drop that current down, and the contacts can tarnish and stop working.
Liam, you mentioned that you could hear "nothing but a click"??? We really need to know where this noise is coming from - is it out of your immobiliser, or is it the starter motor solenoid trying to engage? If it's not the solenoid trying to engage, then you can probably assume that no power at all is getting to the solenoid, and that the fault will be with the immobiliser, ignition switch, auto safety switch, or wiring in between them. When you hear the click, do the dash warning lights dim right down, or do they stay bright?
The ignition switch is adjustable backwards and forwards (two 5/16" bolts) to allow for variations in steering columns. When you turn the key, a steel "L" shaped rod attached to the ignition barrel pushes/pulls against a slot in the ignition switch, which moves the internals of the switch to make contact. If the switch is mounted too low on the column, it may be only just making contact to energise the starter motor solenoid, meaning that sometimes it will work, and sometimes it won't. Try adjusting it back up towards the steering wheel a little, and see if this cures the problem.
Down at the starter motor end, check the condition of the connector on the end of the purple wire, and while you're at it, pull the large flat wiring connector apart up near the windscreen wiper motor, and check the condition of the contacts in either end.
The next time it fails to start, CAREFULLY put a screwdriver or something metallic between the starter solenoid connection (purple wire) and the main starter motor cable - this should fire up the starter motor and turn the motor over. If it doesn't, then it's fairly definitely a problem wityh your starter motor or starter motor solenoid. Old solenoids can jam up and wear out, but if yours is new, then that would be unlikely. If it does fire up, then it will most likely be ignition switch, immobiliser, or starter solenoid wiring. If you can't get to the starter motor, you can pull the plug mentioned above apart, and apply power to the purple wire on the engine bay side of the wiring loom. If you like getting your fingers burned
, then you can also try inserting a bent paperclip into the thick red and purple wires with the connector still connected, but be warned - the engine WILL try to start (presuming the starter motor is OK), even if it's in gear.
One thing that used to be a problem on Chev starter motors is that the starter solenoid would wear out its contacts. Inside the solenoid is a spring loaded plunger with a flat end, sitting opposite two round copper pads - one pad is connected to the starter motor power, and the other is connected to the battery. When you turn the ignition on to START, power flows through the purple wire down to the solenoid, which has an electromagnet built into it. The electromagnet forces the plunger onto both copper pads, which completes a path for the high current to flow which is needed by the starter motor. I haven't really seen too many issues with Holden 6 and 8 starter motors, but on a few Chev ones, these copper pads wear down (get hammered down) over time, and don't make good enough contact to complete the circuit for the starter motor. You can replace the pads, but a quick fix is to turn them 180 degrees.
Let us know where the click's coming from, and what your dash lights do.
Good luck
The standard Holden ignition switch and starter solenoid wiring is definitely big enough to supply the required current when it is in good condition. Dropping the amount of current that it supplies (eg by fitting a relay) can actually make things worse, as the ignition switch contacts can be cleaned by having a reasonable current passed through them. Drop that current down, and the contacts can tarnish and stop working.
Liam, you mentioned that you could hear "nothing but a click"??? We really need to know where this noise is coming from - is it out of your immobiliser, or is it the starter motor solenoid trying to engage? If it's not the solenoid trying to engage, then you can probably assume that no power at all is getting to the solenoid, and that the fault will be with the immobiliser, ignition switch, auto safety switch, or wiring in between them. When you hear the click, do the dash warning lights dim right down, or do they stay bright?
The ignition switch is adjustable backwards and forwards (two 5/16" bolts) to allow for variations in steering columns. When you turn the key, a steel "L" shaped rod attached to the ignition barrel pushes/pulls against a slot in the ignition switch, which moves the internals of the switch to make contact. If the switch is mounted too low on the column, it may be only just making contact to energise the starter motor solenoid, meaning that sometimes it will work, and sometimes it won't. Try adjusting it back up towards the steering wheel a little, and see if this cures the problem.
Down at the starter motor end, check the condition of the connector on the end of the purple wire, and while you're at it, pull the large flat wiring connector apart up near the windscreen wiper motor, and check the condition of the contacts in either end.
The next time it fails to start, CAREFULLY put a screwdriver or something metallic between the starter solenoid connection (purple wire) and the main starter motor cable - this should fire up the starter motor and turn the motor over. If it doesn't, then it's fairly definitely a problem wityh your starter motor or starter motor solenoid. Old solenoids can jam up and wear out, but if yours is new, then that would be unlikely. If it does fire up, then it will most likely be ignition switch, immobiliser, or starter solenoid wiring. If you can't get to the starter motor, you can pull the plug mentioned above apart, and apply power to the purple wire on the engine bay side of the wiring loom. If you like getting your fingers burned
, then you can also try inserting a bent paperclip into the thick red and purple wires with the connector still connected, but be warned - the engine WILL try to start (presuming the starter motor is OK), even if it's in gear.One thing that used to be a problem on Chev starter motors is that the starter solenoid would wear out its contacts. Inside the solenoid is a spring loaded plunger with a flat end, sitting opposite two round copper pads - one pad is connected to the starter motor power, and the other is connected to the battery. When you turn the ignition on to START, power flows through the purple wire down to the solenoid, which has an electromagnet built into it. The electromagnet forces the plunger onto both copper pads, which completes a path for the high current to flow which is needed by the starter motor. I haven't really seen too many issues with Holden 6 and 8 starter motors, but on a few Chev ones, these copper pads wear down (get hammered down) over time, and don't make good enough contact to complete the circuit for the starter motor. You can replace the pads, but a quick fix is to turn them 180 degrees.
Let us know where the click's coming from, and what your dash lights do.
Good luck
Edited by Dangerous, 03 February 2006 - 12:34 PM.
#17
ToRunYa
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Posted 03 February 2006 - 04:13 PM
my moneys on the neutral saftey, take the wires off the switch and bung em together somehow (make sure shes in park or neutral) turn the key, if that dont work ya know ya neutrals fine!
I had to wiggle my shifter around all the bloody time to get it to start, my solution was uck it couple of terminals, bit or shrinky stuff and just be sure that its in park.
I had to wiggle my shifter around all the bloody time to get it to start, my solution was uck it couple of terminals, bit or shrinky stuff and just be sure that its in park.
#18
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Posted 03 February 2006 - 06:36 PM
Sweet, I love it when there is plenty of information.
My money was originally on the neutral safety because the first time it happened I pulled off the shifter checked the plugs and it started straight up spent the next couple of times fiddling around with the switch and in the end did like you suggested and bypassed the switch but nothing so I've moved onto other things.
Took the car for a drive on Wednesday to see if I could get it to play up but it wouldn't come to the party. However it gets a lot hotter under there than I first imagined. The firewall on the passenger side heats up to the point that it too hot to touch, and I mean its pure reflex reaction to pull away, you can't leave it sitting there for any length of time. I can only imagine how hot the starter must be getting in there beause it is very neatly tucked right in under the extractors. I'm going to have to remove the extractors to get a proper look at the solenoid and all the related wiring, its just too hard to get to. I'm dropping the steering column tomorrow to replace the horn switch loom so I'll check the ignition swith at the same time and eliminate that as a factor.
But yeah, if we are talking about heat saturation affecting the wiring being a possible, then thats where my bets are going.
In reference to the sound at startup DANGEROUS, well I can't really hear squat because of my fuel pump. But from memory, yes, my lights dim and the fuel pump definately labours when I turn the key. Thanks for all your detailed info as well, this means I can try some real methods instead of the guesswork I usually employ.
We'll see how it goes and I'll report back when I come out of hospital for lighting myself up
Cheers,
My money was originally on the neutral safety because the first time it happened I pulled off the shifter checked the plugs and it started straight up spent the next couple of times fiddling around with the switch and in the end did like you suggested and bypassed the switch but nothing so I've moved onto other things.
Took the car for a drive on Wednesday to see if I could get it to play up but it wouldn't come to the party. However it gets a lot hotter under there than I first imagined. The firewall on the passenger side heats up to the point that it too hot to touch, and I mean its pure reflex reaction to pull away, you can't leave it sitting there for any length of time. I can only imagine how hot the starter must be getting in there beause it is very neatly tucked right in under the extractors. I'm going to have to remove the extractors to get a proper look at the solenoid and all the related wiring, its just too hard to get to. I'm dropping the steering column tomorrow to replace the horn switch loom so I'll check the ignition swith at the same time and eliminate that as a factor.
But yeah, if we are talking about heat saturation affecting the wiring being a possible, then thats where my bets are going.
In reference to the sound at startup DANGEROUS, well I can't really hear squat because of my fuel pump. But from memory, yes, my lights dim and the fuel pump definately labours when I turn the key. Thanks for all your detailed info as well, this means I can try some real methods instead of the guesswork I usually employ.
We'll see how it goes and I'll report back when I come out of hospital for lighting myself up
Cheers,
#19
_Yella SLuR_
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Posted 03 February 2006 - 09:20 PM
Dud solenoid (intemittent nature, heat soak gradually kills em too) or your battery doesn't have enough charge (they don't last forever). I'm up for a new solenoid and possibly a battery, same symptoms. Don't know of auto gremlins, so do the switch bypass thing others have suggested.
Edited by Yella SLuR, 03 February 2006 - 09:22 PM.
#20
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Posted 06 February 2006 - 03:38 PM
O.k, bit of an update. I had a look at the ignition switch on the weekend and it is positioned as far as it will go 'uphill'. I took it for a test run up Mt Dandy to sky high and no good, same problem. Incidently there was a sweet as 1970 'Cuda 440 up there for a wedding. Beautiful red and balck with 20inch rears with 315 rubber and 19" fronts, looked like 3" dual system, pro shifter etc., looked like it would go real hard. Was sitting on the back of a trailer because it had lunched the gearbox on the way up. Got a few photos on my phone, will try and lift them later on tonight.
So anyway, back to the topic, its looking more and more like the starter solenoid or starter wiring that is probably being affected by heat soak as the source of my problem.
Peace,
So anyway, back to the topic, its looking more and more like the starter solenoid or starter wiring that is probably being affected by heat soak as the source of my problem.
Peace,
#21
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 09:19 AM
That points to a jamming starter solenoid, especially if it's not 'clicking' - when you turn the key to the start position, if the solenoid is jammed, then it will draw much more current than it should, which will cause the dash lights etc to dim. It could possibly also be a jamming starter motor, or the throwout lever for the starter gear (if the starter solenoid is clicking, it's more likely to be this).In reference to the sound at startup DANGEROUS, well I can't really hear squat because of my fuel pump. But from memory, yes, my lights dim and the fuel pump definately labours when I turn the key. Thanks for all your detailed info as well, this means I can try some real methods instead of the guesswork I usually employ.
We'll see how it goes and I'll report back when I come out of hospital for lighting myself up
Cheers,
Is your engine and chassis earth in very good condition?
#22
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 01:13 PM
Can you get to the starter solenoid with something heavy?
Often if the solenoid is sticky.. hitting it with a lump of timber or gently witha hammer and shake it loose and give you a start.
If you canget to it.. I'd suggest carrying the "whackometer" with you, and when it happens give teh starter a few love taps and then try and start it!
Cheers.
Often if the solenoid is sticky.. hitting it with a lump of timber or gently witha hammer and shake it loose and give you a start.
If you canget to it.. I'd suggest carrying the "whackometer" with you, and when it happens give teh starter a few love taps and then try and start it!
Cheers.
#23
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 02:59 PM
Hehehehe, works on a six or even a HQ Tiny, but our solenoids are nestled very snuggly under the damn extractors. If you have access to a pit or hoist, starter is much easier taking out from underneath the car.
To avoid the heatsoak problem, peeps have advised a reduction geared VR/VS starter motor which is smaller, and also has the solenoid in a different location (don't know where yet) which is supposed to be less prone to heat soak off the damn extractors. Worth investigating.
To avoid the heatsoak problem, peeps have advised a reduction geared VR/VS starter motor which is smaller, and also has the solenoid in a different location (don't know where yet) which is supposed to be less prone to heat soak off the damn extractors. Worth investigating.
#24
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 04:57 PM
Yeah, Yella's right Tiny, no chance in hell of even a midget getting withing swinging distance of this thing. Nicely shaped 1 3/4 extractors prevent and decent access from the top right and the high energy sump gets in the way from the bottom (can fit my hand up to feel around with much difficulty).
The engine and chassis earth should be in good condition as it was all re-wired and routed about 3 months ago (last owner had run the wires in through the wheel arch and it was hanging over the steering and crossmember so I had the sparky redo it all).
It certainly looks like the starter motor is the culprit. What are the fixes for these jamming probs, is buying a new starter the best option? I'm seriously condsidering HPC coating the extractors as well to cut down on the heat it would be receiving.
Liam,
The engine and chassis earth should be in good condition as it was all re-wired and routed about 3 months ago (last owner had run the wires in through the wheel arch and it was hanging over the steering and crossmember so I had the sparky redo it all).
It certainly looks like the starter motor is the culprit. What are the fixes for these jamming probs, is buying a new starter the best option? I'm seriously condsidering HPC coating the extractors as well to cut down on the heat it would be receiving.
Liam,
#25
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 05:14 PM
If it is the starter motor, then a new or newish one such as the VS type would be the go over an older reconditioned one. Reconditioned ones don't tend to have their shaft straightness checked, or any of the stator windings checked, which can lead to jamming.
You can either HPC coat the extractors (good thing to do, but expensive), buy some heat reflective wrap from a race shop (eg RPM) and wrap the starter motor - but stay away from the contacts! - , or do both.
You can either HPC coat the extractors (good thing to do, but expensive), buy some heat reflective wrap from a race shop (eg RPM) and wrap the starter motor - but stay away from the contacts! - , or do both.
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