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Panhard V No panhard rod.

Started by rodomo , Dec 30 2007 09:25 AM

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#1 rodomo

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 09:25 AM

I have just had a look at Moot's mate's panhard set up in this thread:

http://www.gmh-toran...=0

My understanding is that the Commodore rear end with parallel control arms and a panhard rod is superior to standard Torana with angled conrol arms and no panhard.

The reasoning is that the Torana rear end steers a bit like a skate board when cornering.

Am I correct?

This came up in conversation last week with a couple of forum members.

#2 _moot_

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 10:19 AM

its suprising the difference it made. torana diffs never seem to sit in the centre and yeah,they move around a bit.its worth it,infact i'm getting one on my car now :spoton:

#3 micklx

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 10:37 AM

The parallel arm setup like a Commodre is superior when compared to the Torana angled setup. The Torana's can suffer from the rear suspension binding up under racing conditions when the control arms are trying to allow the suspension to move up and down as required as well as provide lateral support to the rear axle.
On a Commodore, the panhard rod supports the diff laterally allowing the control arms and bushes to only have to accomodate suspension up and down movement.

The drawback with a panhard rod is that as the suspension moves up and down the rear axle moves slightly to the left or right, this is where the watts link setup is superior as the rear axle stays located centrally.

#4 _rocket_

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 11:02 AM

Any pics of the watts setup on a Torana ?

#5 rodomo

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 11:51 AM

Watts on yours Mick?
(pardon the pun)

#6 Racehatch

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 12:22 PM

My car has an adjustable panhard rod, I am planning on changng that to an height adjustable watts setup though, as it will allow me the chance to be able to adjust the rear roll centre.

I agree with commentts made re the angle of the top arms... pig of a setup... really hurts the cars ability to get out of corners well under power (as it induces extra understeer) which I really noticed at Phillip Island. Currently looking at ways (within the rules of course) to get around this problem as I feel it will go a long way to improving the cars pace at some of the faster tracks..

#7 micklx

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 01:58 PM

I've just got the original Commodore Panhard rod.
If I ever get on top of the rest of the car, then a height adjustable Watts Link is on the cards.

The way I understand the I.P. rules, you can add links to the suspension but you can't remove them, so you would need to add a couple of upper links running fore/aft, and render the standard top arms useless so they do nothing, maybe make them out of celery so they flex ???

It's quite an art interpreting some of these rules, no wonder there have been so many arguements over the years.

#8 rodomo

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 02:15 PM

The way I understand the I.P. rules, you can add links to the suspension but you can't remove them, so you would need to add a couple of upper links running fore/aft, and render the standard top arms useless so they do nothing, maybe make them out of celery so they flex ???

So removing your original panhard and fitting a watts link would be acceptable?

With the Toranas, what if you were to brace the 2 top arms across?
Sort of like an "A" frame but perhaps with with a brace near the body and another close to the diff?
Would it be too strong?
Or would the bushes allow enough flex?

#9 Racehatch

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 02:37 PM

So removing your original panhard and fitting a watts link would be acceptable?

With the Toranas, what if you were to brace the 2 top arms across?
Sort of like an "A" frame but perhaps with with a brace near the body and another close to the diff?
Would it be too strong?
Or would the bushes allow enough flex?


Yes, you can change the panhard for a watts linkage.

Re the rear trailing arms on the Torana, unforunately you have to retain the original arms unmodified.. so the only option as mick suggested would be to somehow render them useless, maybe with "supersoft" bushes, and create an extra a arm setup, with the 9inch though, there isnt much room.. (although it has been done)

#10 _rorym_

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 05:32 PM

Group C ran panhards...actually illegally but they did...no watts but...careful boys...dont want any fights on rules this early..Lol! :spoton:
R

#11 Racehatch

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 05:53 PM

Group C ran panhards...actually illegally but they did...no watts but...careful boys...dont want any fights on rules this early..Lol! :spoton:
R


hehe, dont worry Rory, this is for my IPRA sedan, I've got a hatch that I'll be building for the replica racing which these mods wont apply to :)

#12 _rorym_

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 06:10 PM

Good man@! :spoton:
R

#13 Struggler

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 07:28 PM

FWIW my old Group C A9X had a panhard rod. It actually broke once at the rod end and the difference in handling was like night and day. I got a new rod end and refitted it ASAP.
I never would have thought it would have made that much difference.

#14 _82911_

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 08:00 PM

The biggest change adding a panhard bar to a Torana will make (probably what Struggler noticed)is it dramatically lowers the rear roll centre.
Without getting into Kinematics and all the complications of diverging/unequal trailing arms in different planes of travel, the Toranas rear end is very poor in design. Suffers badly from binding andpinion angle changes.
Commodore is much better, however the panhard mount on the chassis is very flexible.
Watts s the shnitz! :spoton:
Sam you need to add at least one more upper control arm to the diff preferrably on the passenger side to try and cancel some of the squat. You are on the right track withthe soft bushes for the standard arms. I buy mine from clark rubber..... ;)

Cheers Greg..

#15 _rorym_

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 10:31 PM

FWIW my old Group C A9X had a panhard rod. It actually broke once at the rod end and the difference in handling was like night and day. I got a new rod end and refitted it ASAP.
I never would have thought it would have made that much difference.

Now that all but convinces me..
Here is a pic of Charlie OBriens L34 rear end I took at Bathurst in 1975. Notice the illegal panhard rod.
Posted Image

Here is the Nissan diff I used and the panhard rod mounting bracket. I have 2 VR/VS complete diff assemblies floating around here...just nee to cut off and weld the bracket and make a arm for the other end...I will thread it like Sam to make it adjustable as well....while it is being done.
R
Posted Image

#16 TerrA LX

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 10:42 PM

Posted Image
Posted Image

#17 _rorym_

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 11:25 PM

Got a pic of the other end of it?..Unusual shock /spring setup...Trust Ron Nissan to do something different..He was my home town guru on cars.
R

#18 TerrA LX

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 12:00 AM

Posted Image
Posted Image

Thats Ron Missen. He has done plenty for me as i have for him.
One of the MOST knowledgeable blokes to have ever lent a spanner.

#19 _rorym_

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 12:25 AM

Hahah!...OK I cant type and its late!..Ask Ron about the green metalflake Ford Customline he built in Moree with push button door handles plus a shit load of other features..?...He will get a giggle out of that..used to give us rides on a Sat arvo around town after the flicks....I was 12 at the time..think I was with Garry Hardman or Rich Chapman...he will remember the names..
R

PS I meant the other end of the panhard rod.

Edited by rorym, 31 December 2007 - 12:30 AM.

#20 TerrA LX

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 12:33 AM

Didn't bother with the other end as optimum is as long as physically possible and level at normal suspension height so as not to arc too much during suspension travel.

Edit, you can just see the mount in the previous pic, do you also think that those outer arm mounts on the diff are angled up (rear ward) quite a bit?

Edited by ALX76, 31 December 2007 - 12:36 AM.

#21 _rorym_

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 12:36 AM

OK..was just interested in the attachment/fitting it had.
R

#22 _rorym_

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 12:41 AM

Didn't bother with the other end as optimum is as long as physically possible and level at normal suspension height so as not to arc too much during suspension travel.

Edit, you can just see the mount in the previous pic, do you also think that those outer arm mounts on the diff are angled up (rear ward) quite a bit?

1. So the deal is to have it basically horizontal inline with the diff housing?

2. Did notice...even looking its a bit hard to work out on the angle.
R

#23 TerrA LX

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 12:43 AM

The arc travel of a pan hard bar when the suspension moves up and down is what makes a watts link superior.

Edit, the longer the pan hard bar the less the arc travel.

Edited by ALX76, 31 December 2007 - 12:44 AM.

#24 _rorym_

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 12:44 AM

HAH!..Just got what you meant! :clap:
Went back and looked at my diff pic...the mounting brackets are actually pivoting about 1"..1 1/4" closer to the rear of the car...not directly under the housing as a std fitment!!..Clever!!
R

#25 _rorym_

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 12:46 AM

The arc travel of a pan hard bar when the suspension moves up and down is what makes a watts link superior.

Edit, the longer the pan hard bar the less the arc travel.

But if we cant use Watts the P/H is the best we can get. Correct me here but the P/H basically just holds the housing from moving left and right?..Thats its main job?

R

Edited by rorym, 31 December 2007 - 12:47 AM.

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