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LPG for high performance engines


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#1 LXCHEV

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 04:50 PM

I am about to rip the 383 Chev out of the LX for a minor rebuild and freshen up (I've damaged the conrod bearings so it's a good excuse to revisit my combo as I'm not 100% happy with it). After chatting with Struggler - the idea was for a cam change (smaller solid), carb change, and higher compression (currently 10:1). A new TCE converter will be on the cards (maybe) later down the track - but that's a different topic for another time.

This engine runs solid high 11's on the track, and is driven everywhere. Cruising has always been high on my priority list. With petrol prices heading as they are, and with the mortgage now - runnings costs are now becoming a real factor for me. Hence the idea has sprung into my head - should I go LPG.... whether it's dual fuel or dedicated straight LPG. I have nothing in my boot - so mounting a tank is not an issue.

So go on everyone - talk me INTO it, or talk me OUT of it!

What are the main consideration for high performance stuff? I've heard standard LPG tanks are no good - I'd need a high flow tank as a start.

What about engine specs? What sort of compression would be ideal. Cam specs? What do LPG engines love?

If anyone wants to see my current specs, they can be found at this link (scroll down to the bottom):

http://www.eastsidec...recarbrett.html

Any feedback, comments or suggestions would be great. I'd love to hear of other similar combo's and results too from running on LPG....

Cheers,
Brett.

Edited by LXCHEV, 16 June 2008 - 04:52 PM.


#2 ollie

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 06:21 PM

I would be looking into a dedicated liquid phase injection system. There are some kits available, and i would recommend if you are going to a dedicated system, bumping up the CR as it will give efficiency as well as performance gains.

#3 Stedz_lc

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 06:35 PM

The only gas i would be fitting is nitrous brett!!

#4 _The Stig_

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:14 PM

To add my 2c worth, dedicated LPG only engines can make good HP if set up properly. You really need to find an LPG specialist who really knows what he is doing tho. Dual fuel engines are a compromise, if you are chasing HP the engine should be dedicated to either fuel - not both.
Just my humble opinion.....

#5 _LX406_

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:18 PM

LPG is for BBQ's.

Seriously, I reckon the LPG idea has merit, but I reckon you should put the hatch on gas as its a daily. My daily, a 308 HK wagon is on gas and is cost effective (and cool at the same time). Gas is for dailys.

As for LXCHEV, bump the compression to 12.1, and run it on methanol. $220 for 205 litres at VPW.

Nah seriously (again), leave LXCHEV a hotty. fix up the motor, make it a bit tougher. Leave it on petrol and go faster. Fill up the blue bottle with gas for race day and get that 10 second timeslip, and a huge poster on the loungeroom wall of LXCHEV with both front wheels 1m in the air!

#6 makka

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:18 PM

if you do go with straight BBQ fuel, I call shotgun on your droptank!

#7 _The Stig_

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:20 PM

I like your thinking LX406. Couldn't disagree with that logic :D

#8 _Aidan_

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 08:27 PM

No reason why a gas setup won't have you running the same/better times.

I have a very sensible gas setup (read: budget) in my torrie and it works effectively. It would definitely have to be straight gas, because dual fuel as already said, is just a compromise. You can't tune an engine for fuel and gas specifically, because they have different compositions. Gas itself is fine as fuel, it has enough energy to produce the power you want, you just need to use a little more of it. All this anti-gas talk is just dogmatic thinking.

But really, It just comes downs to dollars and connections. Do you have enough cash to pay the bills to build a high performance gas setup, and do you know the people who can get it done? If ya do, then you'll save money in running costs.

#9 _73LJWhiteSL_

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 09:24 PM

I guess it depends how much you drive it.

I put the LJ on straight gas about 3 years ago now and have not regretted it. Its great for saving $$$, and it made the LJ go a little quicker, but then it is a daily.

I worked out yesterday to do ~500ks at todays fuel prices costs about $36 on LPG compred to like $102 for 98 RON PULP. :blink:

Steve

#10 MRLXSS

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 10:15 PM

Don't you want to prove to all these doubters that it can be done brett!

#11 _@milco@_

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 10:57 PM

i will be will be building a straight gas engine for my HQ
built right your should not see a diffrence in a performance from lpg to petrol, straight lpg should make a bit more power if the motor is built to suit.

#12 LXCHEV

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 01:02 AM

Yeah the reasons why I'm seriously thinking LPG is so I can continue doing mega km's of cruising. I discovered the other day, since having my Chev running, I've clocked up over 30,000 genuine km's in the old girl. This is over about 6 years - so not a huge amount of km's in the grand scheme of things, but for a 'weekender / hotty' car I reckon it's a lot.

I used to drive the car a lot more on long distance trips - but I can't afford to do these anymore. I want to be able to get in the car and drive to Summernats if I wanted to (8 hours from Melb).... on petrol this is just not going to happen. On LPG, I'd be a much better chance.

This is why I'd love to get it setup to cruise - yet still run the numbers on the strip. I'm not really interested in turning the car into a low-km / trailered car, it's too much fun cruising. Damn petrol prices, they suck!!!

#13 TerrA LX

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 01:03 AM

http://www.gas-injection.com/

http://www.parnell.c...id=27&Itemid=41

#14 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 03:15 AM

If you plan on doing around 5000 KM and get around 19 L/100 then you will use 937 litres of petrol or 1,190 litres of LPG ( about 27% more LPG required than petrol ).

At $1.60/$1500 vs $0.58/$690 you would save $810 per 5000 KM (54%)
At $2.00/$1875 vs $0.58/$690 you would save $1185 per 5000 KM (63%)

#15 _LX406_

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 06:57 AM

You might even be able to get the govt to give you $2000 toward the conversion with their grant. Sell off the mighty demon and fuel pump, you may have it covered.

I'd like to see you succeed in getting it hauling ass on gas. I dont know of hardly any fast cars on gas. The only ones lately that I have heard of have been VL Turbos etc.

You could be a pioneer when it comes to genuine tuff streeters working well on gas. That would be cool, run 11's with .60c Litre fuel in the tank.

But at this early stage I still am not convinced that gas is for hotty chevs.

#16 _73LJWhiteSL_

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 08:07 AM

If you plan on doing around 5000 KM and get around 19 L/100 then you will use 937 litres of petrol or 1,190 litres of LPG ( about 27% more LPG required than petrol ).

Not always the case. With old dual fuel cars you tend to get worse economy on LPG comapred to petrol, because the car is tuned for petrol.

I went from PULP to straight LPG on the LJ and am getting ths same economy. If you adjust the timing and change the plugs, which is all i have done it shouldn't be too hard to get the same economy.

Steve

Edited by 73LJWhiteSL, 17 June 2008 - 08:07 AM.


#17 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 10:28 AM

The fuel consumption difference will depend on how efficient the car was on petrol. The 27% is based on replacing EFI, if replacing an inefficient carby system the increase in consumption would not be as significant.

Fuel consumption on Autogas is higher than petrol due to Autogas having slightly less heat value per litre than petrol. Because current technology gas systems have very basic fuel management criterion compared to the advanced OEM computers, Autogas fuel consumption is increased approximately 27% over petrol operation.


http://www.gas-injec...s.html#improved

#18 MRLXSS

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 10:40 AM

Here are a few HOT looking set-ups


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#19 LXCHEV

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 11:18 AM

LX406 - you summed it up beautifully. Yes, I am entitled to the $2,000 from the government, and I worked out if I sold off my other parts, I should quite easily have another $1,000, so that's $3,000 towards the conversion already.

What you said is exactly what I have been thinking - it's be great to have a tough as nails LPG streeter - there's not many around at all.

The setups that Matt posted is the sort of stuff I would look at. I have a few people I need to speak with, and start doing some further research. I'll keep you all posted.

#20 LhMusL

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 11:40 AM

Welcome to my world of pain brett :tease:

Ok from what i have been able to gather over the years is this:
Vapour carb setup
Carb/ mixers
You can use a single technocarb, otherwise you will need a twin setup, either impco 425's or Gas Research.
Tank
2 std tanks(single outlet) or 1 dual outlet tank both with twin lines all the way to each of your 2 vapouriser's that you will need for you power levels.

This setup would prob cost $3500ish, with the 2k rebate = $1,500 not bad coz you will prob make that back selling your petrol goodies that you have on at the moment. Power should be similar if the engine is built for LPG.
I would prob go the technocarb on a single plane out the bonnet coz you can :rockon: or get a twin carb manifold (easy for chev) and go twin impco 425's

Down side:
Car smells like poo, but you get over that when its $30-50 to fill. Torana looses that lovely petrol smell, but you can always put some in a water sprayer and give the interior a once over :spit: better yet use it as a cologne.


Vapour injection
Tank situation is the same, prob only 1 maybe 2 injection vapourisers, but the main difference is you need an ecu and this is the killer and why it cost more! Same situation as going injection with petrol really, better economy than LPG carby being the biggest draw card and same power as petrol. ALso all the other goodies that you can do with an ecu if you care for all that.
You would need to tap injection bosses in your current manifold and run a 4 barrell throttle body, or get a aftermarket injection manifold that you like the look of. Again not to hard for a chev!
Price 5-6k??? rebate again so 3-4kish minus your petrol gear 2-3k????? not really that bad seeing you could drive it every day then :spoton: AND that was the price i paid for a GRA carby setup when the rebate wasn't around!!!!!!!! :gun: :gun: :gun:
Smells less like poo as it has better control over a/f ration


Liquid injection

Similar setup to vapour injection.
Now we are talking :spoton: supposed to be only slightly more than a vapour injection($500ish) and you get better again economy and MORE performance than vapour injection AND petrol.
Tank is differnt setup, only one needed as it has its own pump built into it, so no vapouriser coolant hose sh$%t every where. Just one line from the tank to the regulator then into the fuel rail -> injectors.
Not out yet but will be soon :D By the time your engine is done it should be fine.

Hopefully i will be getting a liquid setup as if your gonna spend that much might as well pay a little more and get better economy/power again.

Ecu would be good for you application bret as you can have dual maps setup eg. economy for cruzing and power for the drag etc,

But in saying all of this you do lose something not really sure what it is, could just be a bit of the cars bad ass character with LPG, the smell, the carbys ruff sound nothing will be the same as a muscle car on petrol spitting out raw fuel etc.

Hope this helps you bret :D

#21 LXCHEV

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 11:58 AM

Thanks heaps Luke for the great advice. It's great to hear from someone who has researched it before, there's some great ideas there!

#22 LXCHEV

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 01:35 PM

Some more interesting info I found out at lunchtime regarding consumption comparisons:

1. Typical gas carby setup - will use ~ 25% more LPG than petrol

2. Vapour gas injection setup - will use ~ 15% more LPG than petrol

3. Liquid gas injection setup - will use ~ 8% more LPG than petrol

#23 FastEHHolden

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 02:22 PM

Unfortunately if you delve into that site..the some of the info is old (2004) and it says the system is not available for sale to the public.

#24 LXCHEV

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 02:57 PM

Hey Luke - what aftermarket ECU's had you looked at?

I checked out a vapour gas injected hot rod at lunchtime - they are using a WOLF3D on that one.

I remember looking at Autronic's back when I had my Lexus 1UZFE. Obviously MOTEC would be sweet, but too pricey.

Are there any specific requirements we need to keep in mind when choosing one?

#25 _torbirdie_

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 03:49 PM

Some more interesting info I found out at lunchtime regarding consumption comparisons:

1. Typical gas carby setup - will use ~ 25% more LPG than petrol

2. Vapour gas injection setup - will use ~ 15% more LPG than petrol

3. Liquid gas injection setup - will use ~ 8% more LPG than petrol

Those figures seem to be quoted frequently, but not what is revealed in the government fuel usage tests/Australian standards etc.
LPG use in these tests is 30% more with fact Ford and Holden gas carby systems and there is no improvement shown with the factory vapor injection system fitted to current Holdens. Ford at the moment dont have a fact vapor kit.




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