Jump to content


Photo

VK injection setup


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 orangeLJ

orangeLJ

    Yes, yes I do post alot!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,261 posts
  • Joined: 02-May 06

Posted 07 July 2008 - 11:27 AM

Alright,

Ive decided to go a different route to my original carbied blown 202.

I picked up a cheap VK efi setup at a swap meet the other week and thought, what the hell, it would all fit easier then using a carby off the back of the blower.

So now im leaving the plans until i can get all my bits together.

Plan is as follows-

Eaton m45, smaller pulley for more boost. (could go an eaton m60?)

Bypass valve fitted (yella terra make one?)

VKEFI inlet manifold-
How well do they flow, due to the bends im assuming you couldnt go too far with part work other then matchporting to the head.

Also the std throttle bodies, how good are they? would i be better off upgrading to a larger one like V6 commodore?

Larger injectors

not sure how large i really need (im a carby person :D )

Motec ECU
Cheap through a friend (was bought for his sprintcar about 3 years ago), not 100% on how much i can control with it, but im assuming it has alot of variables and functions, (motecs are pretty fancy units from what ive seen)

Im thinking of going to coil packs and distributorless, looking at using one of the scorcher dizzys (im assuming they act like a CAS for the computer?) and 3 dual MSD coil packs.



Also going to need to update my fuel system. (but have very little idea how far i need to go)

I know im going to need a electric fuel pump (holley?) will i need to fit an external pot?

Im more then likely going to upgrade the fuel lines and all the rest, but im just feeling a little overwhelmed by it all (fuel injection seems complicated :tease: )

I ha plans to have the blower on by christmas, but i figure this route will be a bit better, but may take longer.

anyone care to comment/lend a hand

#2 _brett_32i_

_brett_32i_
  • Guests

Posted 07 July 2008 - 12:37 PM

i have just taken some pictures for you showing a commodore tb on a vk manifold.
tb is a pre ecotec v6/8 which i have fitted a 70mm butterfly.

my pic is the ecotec tb which is about an inch shorter in the body and will still fit a 70mm butterfly, although the std 65??mm would be fine. good thing it std torana throttle cable clips on. i also took a photo of the cotec tb on my vehicle showing its size.

even though they are 2 bolt tb's, it does bolt onto the vk manifold. it only goes on 2 ways, not 4, and there would need some port matching done.

anyway, email me for pics [email protected]

#3 yel327

yel327

    Oh My, Don't you post alot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,708 posts
  • Joined: 10-February 08

Posted 07 July 2008 - 12:47 PM

If you are going to coil packs, get a VK carby motor flywheel or flexplate and sensor/mount off the back of the head. Simply drill a hole in the bellhousing to match the VK for the sensor to poke through. I think these give you a pulse at 3 (or 6) degrees BTDC for each piston pair. The engine management system can use this for ignition like a VN V6. I'd use a Delco ECU. The software is free and you simply have to get a Eeprom burner and a few bits to make it work. I'm pretty sure someone has done the Delco ECU controlling a Holden EFI six before so you should be able to get the Memcal file off them as a start. There is a also a Turbo version of programming software available from Kalmaker.

#4 _brett_32i_

_brett_32i_
  • Guests

Posted 07 July 2008 - 01:16 PM

agree on using the delco, should of metioned that.
not sure whats invloved in fitting a balancer/sensor from the v6 but it would give you belt drive and a better balancer.

#5 _Sammy_

_Sammy_
  • Guests

Posted 07 July 2008 - 02:06 PM

VKEFI inlet manifold-
How well do they flow, due to the bends im assuming you couldnt go too far with part work other then matchporting to the head.


the biggest restriction in the vk setup is the air flow meter, so by getting rid of it you will resolve that issue, also i have to agree port match it to the head and you'll be laughin.

Also the std throttle bodies, how good are they? would i be better off upgrading to a larger one like V6 commodore?

standard throttle body is a good size but if you remove the air flow meter you need to use something else or fit different sensors to it .... i'd suggest a vn v6 (60mm) or v8 (65mm) is what to use.

Larger injectors

not sure how large i really need (im a carby person :D )


depends how much power your planning to make, but you could start with a commodore v8 or supercharged v6 injector.

Motec ECU
Cheap through a friend (was bought for his sprintcar about 3 years ago), not 100% on how much i can control with it, but im assuming it has alot of variables and functions, (motecs are pretty fancy units from what ive seen)

Im thinking of going to coil packs and distributorless, looking at using one of the scorcher dizzys (im assuming they act like a CAS for the computer?) and 3 dual MSD coil packs.


i guess it depends what cheap is because motec isn't cheap when new!
i think it will do everything you need and more, but then i have never seen one in action so i really don't know.

delco on the other hand will do all you need and most probably cost less :)

coil packs are an option however you need a good crank trigger to drive them, another more cost effective solution is to use a je camira coil and ignition module and modify the dizzy to suite it.... put simply, the dizzy bottom section acts as a CAS for the computer and the top section of the dizzy distributes spark as it would normally, only difference is the computer tells the coil when to spark and not the dizzy telling it when to spark.

Also going to need to update my fuel system. (but have very little idea how far i need to go)

I know im going to need a electric fuel pump (holley?) will i need to fit an external pot?

Im more then likely going to upgrade the fuel lines and all the rest, but im just feeling a little overwhelmed by it all (fuel injection seems complicated :tease: )


holley pumps which i've seen are for carby applications and do not flow enough for what you need ....

you will need to get a pump specific to EFI and there are heaps around on ebay and in automotive stores, depends on power and how much you want to spend i guess.

the best solution would be a low pressure pump (something like a holley pump) to get fuel up into a surge tank, then have your efi pump suck out of the bottom of the surge tank and then it will supply the engine, the return line from the engine will then go back to the surge tank and then if the surge tank overflows its over flow will go back to the main fuel tank, this can be easily achieved with a fitting put in the side of the filler neck etc.

my car runs an efi pump straight from the tank using the original fuel lines then returns to the tank via the air breather in the filler neck, this works fine, but the engine will start to surge around corners when the fuel tank gets to about 1/8

i don't think you will need to upgrade the size of the fuel lines unless you are going to be making a fair bit of power.

I ha plans to have the blower on by christmas, but i figure this route will be a bit better, but may take longer.

anyone care to comment/lend a hand


I have just last week gotten the above mentioned VN injection running on a 202 and i am in the process of trying to get it running smoothly, it works great and is going to be a huge upgrade compared to the current VK injection i'm running, but its going to take alot of work to tune .... i'd suggest if you do go this route, get it all fitted and running then get the car to a dyno who can tune the delco for you, especially with a blower as you don't want to torch the motor.

if you want to go the delco route i am happy to share what i know about mods to get it working on a 202, but at the moment thats about all i can tell you :) i'm planning to tune this myself cause i don't want to pay for a dyno, but who knows how i will go in the end!

#6 _Sammy_

_Sammy_
  • Guests

Posted 07 July 2008 - 02:10 PM

oh and heres some pics of my mods etc and a little teaser for of my engine once i got it running on the delco without any tuning it wont idle but it seems to keep running ok up from idle...

http://www.oldholdens.com/temp/vnkefi/

the two wmv files are the ones you want to look at.

and before anyone says WTF .... the car the motor is in it a TG Gemini, i'm building it up for drag duties and i needed somewhere to get the efi working so i used this engine as my test bed, once i'm happy with it i will be transferring it onto my Torana so i can tune it more on the road.

#7 orangeLJ

orangeLJ

    Yes, yes I do post alot!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,261 posts
  • Joined: 02-May 06

Posted 07 July 2008 - 02:31 PM

The motec AFAIK has alot more options for tuneability then most ECUs.

And im getting it reasonably cheap.

All the software comes with it so its no massive drama.

I just found out the scorcher dizzy is $500 on its own, so not too sure i want to follow that path.

any other options to run this sort of setup?

#8 _1uzbt1_

_1uzbt1_
  • Guests

Posted 07 July 2008 - 04:06 PM

If you use anything thing that doesnt use a dizzy,you will need a ignition setup that also has a home reference.

#9 _revmaniac_

_revmaniac_
  • Guests

Posted 07 July 2008 - 09:54 PM

delco ignition side CAN be triggered by a electronic dissy AFAIK...my cousin has the software and has tuned heaps of cars...he tells me when i convert my red 308 to efi i can use a stock V8 electronic to run it....

also as good as MOTEC's are they still wont have the shear number of mapping points as a GM ECU which would have had literally MILLIONS of $$$ of development thrown at it...if you want driveability its already there.....all you have to do is tune the boost part of it...

#10 _Sammy_

_Sammy_
  • Guests

Posted 08 July 2008 - 12:41 PM

delco ignition side CAN be triggered by a electronic dissy AFAIK...my cousin has the software and has tuned heaps of cars...he tells me when i convert my red 308 to efi i can use a stock V8 electronic to run it....

also as good as MOTEC's are they still wont have the shear number of mapping points as a GM ECU which would have had literally MILLIONS of $$$ of development thrown at it...if you want driveability its already there.....all you have to do is tune the boost part of it...

yeah with a camira ignition module and coil .... either that or if your converting a v8, use the commodore v8 dizzy and ignition module.

i can vouch for the mapping points in a delco ecu, there is pretty much adjustments for every 200rpm and every 10 % throttle and manifold pressure etc ... thats for fuel then theres more tables for spark .....

i've looked at heaps of the ecu ability and theres still so much more i haven't even delved into!! they really are the best oem ecu to use ...... they are even better than alot of the aftermarket units :)

#11 orangeLJ

orangeLJ

    Yes, yes I do post alot!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,261 posts
  • Joined: 02-May 06

Posted 08 July 2008 - 01:20 PM

so we arent talking about the original VK computer..

jumping between calling it a "delco" and then talking OEM products is confusing me.

Where can you get them and how much are they worth?

#12 yel327

yel327

    Oh My, Don't you post alot

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,708 posts
  • Joined: 10-February 08

Posted 08 July 2008 - 02:58 PM

Straight out of any VN/VP V6. Also in some Camiras and Pulsars with Camira engines. Worth about $20. Buy a whole VN for $250 and get the ECU, Harness, MAP sensor, throttle body, coil packs etc.

#13 Com_VC

Com_VC

    Forum Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 411 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 06

Posted 08 July 2008 - 03:02 PM

Delco it's just the factory ecu from a je camira or vn-vp commodore. It's the 808 model and they are usually worth about $20 or so.

Yes they are a good ecu but you have to know what you are doing to program them, you need an eprom programmer and some software to be able to do so and it cant be programmed in real time unless you have some fancy hardware.

kalmaker uses the same ecu but with a hardware board added and can be programmed in real time. A bit more than $20 though, think $1100 ish from memory. www.kalmaker.com.au

It's a good product but I dont like the fact that it uses old dos based software.

Any more info on the motec, what model, what sorta $$$ would you pay for it. It might be best to stick with it, then again it could be a 20 year old pos? lol

#14 orangeLJ

orangeLJ

    Yes, yes I do post alot!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,261 posts
  • Joined: 02-May 06

Posted 08 July 2008 - 03:25 PM

Motec is only roughly 4 years old. price wise im looking at about $300-$500

not sure on the model, but from what the old boy was saying, it wasnt a base model and he payed a fair bit for it.

Will find out over the next couple days and get back to you guys.

I have a complete VN v6 wagon sitting around (minus some panels)

We were going to use the buick V6 in a street stocker, but hell, i might just raid it for bits.

#15 Com_VC

Com_VC

    Forum Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 411 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 06

Posted 08 July 2008 - 03:52 PM

thats cheap for any motec of that age, i'd grab it :)

#16 Joshua

Joshua

    Lotsa Posts!

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,539 posts
  • Name:Joshua
  • Location:Brisbane, Northside
  • Joined: 16-December 05

Posted 08 July 2008 - 04:36 PM

http://holdenpaedia....VK_EFI_Improved

does this sound about right?
i was thinking about doing those mods..
is it worth it?

#17 _Sammy_

_Sammy_
  • Guests

Posted 09 July 2008 - 02:57 PM

its pretty close.....

theres a few ways you can do it, like moding the throttle body as they said, also you can do what i did and get a vn throttle body flange welded onto the vk manifold .....

the vk efi coolant sensor will work with the vn ....

if you were to do it on a 202 and had to start from scratch my suggestion would be to get the vk efi manifold with injectors and fuel rail, then get the rest off a vn or camira .... obviously needing the coil and ignition module from a camira (i got these new from auto store)

from there you will have everything you need to get the ball rolling....

i agree the tuning side of it is a real pain in the ass, i've had mine running for just over 1 week now and im still trying to get it idling right ... its very slow with the eeprom programmer method...... but i don't want to take it to an expensive dyno!

if you can get the motec for that price and it just needs sensors and stuff for the motor then its probably going to be a better option .... once you buy all the bits from other cars to use the delco 808 then you wont have much change anyways ....

i guess the other question is how easy to program is the motec!!

#18 orangeLJ

orangeLJ

    Yes, yes I do post alot!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,261 posts
  • Joined: 02-May 06

Posted 09 July 2008 - 03:34 PM

I dont know on how easy it is to program the motec.... I wont be doing it :)

haha.

A mate of my old boys has a dyno in his ultratune shop and an experienced operator/tuner.

so he said we can work something out

Im fairly sure they have most of the sensors with the motec anyway, so thats no biggy either.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users