rebuilding the front suspension on my lj torana.
looked through the site and recommendation is to leave the top ball joints alone unless they are stuffed because they are riveted in.
after 35 yrs surely they need replacing....how do i know if they are stuffed?
thanks
how to know if ball joints are stuffed?
Started by
_SnotGobbler_
, Jan 01 2009 07:10 PM
39 replies to this topic
#2
marko1au
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Posted 01 January 2009 - 07:24 PM
exsesive movement in the ball joint itself,corrosion,broken rubbers.I was in the same situation after buying the car and deciding to rebuild the front end i thought it was senseless not to change them and everything else that could cause a problem. I think from memory that mine where original as well. don't have to worry now all new.
Mark
Mark
#3
TerrA LX
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Posted 01 January 2009 - 07:30 PM
exsesive movement in the ball joint itself,corrosion,broken rubbers.I was in the same situation after buying the car and deciding to rebuild the front end i thought it was senseless not to change them and everything else that could cause a problem. I think from memory that mine where original as well. don't have to worry now all new.
Mark
Ive seen some new top joints fitted that were worse than the OEM fitment.
Did you replace your inner tie rods as well?
It is sorta like rebuilding a motor and replacing the crank just cause it is 35 years old.
#4
_SnotGobbler_
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Posted 01 January 2009 - 08:00 PM
as for me, ive got new upper/lower ball joints, tie rod ends, new shocks, nolathane rubbers. maybe i should get the springs reset. have lower springs to go, but yet undecided. thankfully brakes have been rebuilt and looks like new rotors..
anyway thats a bit off topic i guess
anyway thats a bit off topic i guess
#5
rodomo
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Posted 01 January 2009 - 09:52 PM
If you place a jack under the lower control arm, as close as possible but not interfering with the wheel, it will unload the upper and lower ball joints, the wheel bearings and the upper inner control arm bushes. (Pink bits)
Then, if you grab the top and bottom of the wheel and rock it in the direction of the arrows, you will see/feel the play in these components.
The lower inner control arm bushes will still be loaded by the spring and won't reveal much play. A bar to lever them and a visual inspection of the centre line of the pivot in relation to the bush hole in the control arm will give you an idea of wear.
Then, if you grab the top and bottom of the wheel and rock it in the direction of the arrows, you will see/feel the play in these components.
The lower inner control arm bushes will still be loaded by the spring and won't reveal much play. A bar to lever them and a visual inspection of the centre line of the pivot in relation to the bush hole in the control arm will give you an idea of wear.
#6
_SnotGobbler_
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Posted 02 January 2009 - 09:02 AM
thanks, i should mention that the front crossmember is out of the car on the shed floor. so its a bit late to check it that way *sigh*
ill just replace them, have new replacement ball joints now
now need to figure out where im to get the tools to remove/replace them all
ill just replace them, have new replacement ball joints now
now need to figure out where im to get the tools to remove/replace them all
#7
marko1au
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Posted 03 January 2009 - 06:51 PM
Excellant post rodomo, I can't believe how much i've forgotten
mark
mark
#8
_SnotGobbler_
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Posted 20 March 2009 - 08:01 PM
ok, so ive worked on my chasis crossmember stc and replaced/painted it all etc. now im wondering.. does it matter which side the lower control arms go in for the lj?
as it looks as if the bush housing is offset slightly.. but maybe not. doesnt seem to be specified in the workshop manual anywhere
DSCF0073.JPG 313.85K
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as it looks as if the bush housing is offset slightly.. but maybe not. doesnt seem to be specified in the workshop manual anywhere
DSCF0073.JPG 313.85K
19 downloads
#9
_OtG_
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Posted 20 March 2009 - 08:29 PM
Good thread - interested to know the answers myself, I have all the suspension from my LJ sitting on the shed floor too, ready to start pulling apart and painting... have new nolathane bushes on the way but didn't really think about replacing ball joints as the existing suspension looks and feels pretty good. Guess I'll have to do another search and find that thread I was reading the other day on which are the best ball joints to use!
#10
_why-psi_
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Posted 20 March 2009 - 08:57 PM
bout 6 years ago i found out my lower ball jounts were stuffed when one gave way while driving sending the lower control arm crashing into the road and the wheel up into the guard, scary stuff..... which explained the grinding noise i couldnt find when turning right. it was the balljoint moving so much the lower control arm was rubbing on the brake disc 
was lucky id just turned out of work and was doing about 50km/h. if i had gotten to the motorway and was doing 110.......who knows.
was lucky id just turned out of work and was doing about 50km/h. if i had gotten to the motorway and was doing 110.......who knows.
Edited by why-psi, 20 March 2009 - 08:59 PM.
#11
_SnotGobbler_
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Posted 22 March 2009 - 09:02 AM
ok, so ive worked on my chasis crossmember stc and replaced/painted it all etc. now im wondering.. does it matter which side the lower control arms go in for the lj?
as it looks as if the bush housing is offset slightly.. but maybe not. doesnt seem to be specified in the workshop manual anywhere
so anyone know or suggest?? need to know so i can put the thing back to together :-)
#12
rodomo
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Posted 22 March 2009 - 09:20 AM
Hang on, I'll go look, brb.............................................................................
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............................................The one pictured is the driver's side.
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............................................The one pictured is the driver's side.
#13
_waz355_
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Posted 22 March 2009 - 11:18 AM
Just thought I would add my 2 bobs worth here.
The picture drawn above would not actually check to see if a ball joint is worn. Moving the wheel in the direction of the arrows will only check wheel bearing play.
There is 2 ways to check a ball joint. Either having the joint loaded and removing the load by the use of a crow bar and checking for movement. Or having the ball joint unloaded and applying a load with use of a large set of multigrips or sometimes you can fit a bar in there to do it.
In the picture drawn the ball joint is still loaded so if you put a crow bar between the wheel and the ground and pulled up this would show any movement in the bottom ball joint.
There are 2 types of ball joints load bearing or locating and it depends on the type suspension system for if the upper or lower ball joint is locating or load bearing.
Does that make sense?
The picture drawn above would not actually check to see if a ball joint is worn. Moving the wheel in the direction of the arrows will only check wheel bearing play.
There is 2 ways to check a ball joint. Either having the joint loaded and removing the load by the use of a crow bar and checking for movement. Or having the ball joint unloaded and applying a load with use of a large set of multigrips or sometimes you can fit a bar in there to do it.
In the picture drawn the ball joint is still loaded so if you put a crow bar between the wheel and the ground and pulled up this would show any movement in the bottom ball joint.
There are 2 types of ball joints load bearing or locating and it depends on the type suspension system for if the upper or lower ball joint is locating or load bearing.
Does that make sense?
#14
rodomo
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Posted 22 March 2009 - 11:32 AM
In the picture drawn the ball joint is still loaded
The only load on either balljoint in the diagram are the unladen weight of the wheel/hub assy, stub and upper control arm.
#15
_waz355_
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Posted 22 March 2009 - 11:40 AM
Yes but it still enough load to not show any movement when the wheel is moved laterally. Any other mechanic will confirm this, I have been around a while and haven't ever seen a ball joint checked like this. Not trying to be a smart ass, but I just know this to be fact.
I think it may be possible for your method to work if the joints were very very badly worn, but definately would not show day to day wear. I would be gladly proven wrong though, hey I have been wrong before!
Waz
I think it may be possible for your method to work if the joints were very very badly worn, but definately would not show day to day wear. I would be gladly proven wrong though, hey I have been wrong before!
Waz
#16
rodomo
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Posted 22 March 2009 - 02:26 PM
You do it your way,
I'll keep doing it my way
I'll keep doing it my way
#17
_Terrible One_
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Posted 22 March 2009 - 06:49 PM
I gotta agree with Waz, I'm a mechanic too and as far as I'm concerned that's only good for checking wheel bearing freeplay...
Multi grips and/or a pry bar will quite easily show any wear in a balljoint.
Multi grips and/or a pry bar will quite easily show any wear in a balljoint.
#18
rodomo
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Posted 22 March 2009 - 07:06 PM
No argument from me
You do it your way.
I'll keep doing it my way.
You do it your way.
I'll keep doing it my way.
#19
_SnotGobbler_
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Posted 23 March 2009 - 06:59 AM
Hang on, I'll go look, brb.............................................................................
................................................................................
.
................................................................................
.
................................................................................
.
................................................................................
.
............................................The one pictured is the driver's side.
sweet thanks! :-)
Not being a smarty pants cosidering i was the one to ask the question lol......
but come to think of it... im with Waz, im no mechanic, but i did some work at a few garages when i was a school kid.
i remember being taught thats the way to check wheel bearing play by taking the load off a wheel and rocking it in the direction of arrows, and the crow bar way to check ball joints...
#20
GML-31
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Posted 23 March 2009 - 07:28 AM
if you are replacing your ball joints buy a descent brand, I have seen a 12 month old one let go on a LH SLR5000 at 100 klms p/h and they were very lucky to not write it off...
#21
rodomo
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Posted 23 March 2009 - 09:08 PM
Excellant post rodomo, I can't believe how much i've forgotten
mark
Thanks mate!
It's better to have forgotten something and then remembered it than to never have learnt it.
#22
_waz355_
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Posted 23 March 2009 - 10:06 PM
I'm determined to convince you rodomo. Have a good look at your drawing, the movement you have drawn will put side to side load to the ball joints. So it will only check for wear in the side movement of the ball in the socket.
The majority of wear will be picked up by moving the joints in an up and down motion. When ball joints fail (for example the bottom one in your drawing) the ball actually pulls UP out of the socket, hence the reason for checking the up and down movement.
I am looking at this from a trade perspective. As I said before it is possible that your way may pick up a really excessively worn joint, BUT this is not an effective way of checking a ball joint. It is a very good picture though!
Am I making any progress?
The majority of wear will be picked up by moving the joints in an up and down motion. When ball joints fail (for example the bottom one in your drawing) the ball actually pulls UP out of the socket, hence the reason for checking the up and down movement.
I am looking at this from a trade perspective. As I said before it is possible that your way may pick up a really excessively worn joint, BUT this is not an effective way of checking a ball joint. It is a very good picture though!
Am I making any progress?
#23
rodomo
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Posted 23 March 2009 - 10:37 PM
I have not disagreed with anything any have said with regard to how you blokes check ball joints.
I have used these methods as well on particular balljoints and tie rod ends.
I won't turn this into a pissing contest either.
I would have already won it as I pissed myself when I read this:
"Moving the wheel in the direction of the arrows will only check wheel bearing play"
Use some muscle and try it before you can my method.
I have used these methods as well on particular balljoints and tie rod ends.
I won't turn this into a pissing contest either.
I would have already won it as I pissed myself when I read this:
"Moving the wheel in the direction of the arrows will only check wheel bearing play"
Use some muscle and try it before you can my method.
#24
_Yella SLuR_
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Posted 24 March 2009 - 05:08 AM
^ In the 20+ years of owning Toranas, that's the way mechanics have always checked the ball joints (Rodomo's method). No loss of wheels yet (touches wood).
Edited by Yella SLuR, 24 March 2009 - 05:08 AM.
#25
_waz355_
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Posted 24 March 2009 - 07:18 AM
Find me a mechanic who checks them like this, I have worked with stacks of mechanics and never heard of checking them like this. I teach this stuff for a living and work with 3 other trainers who have never heard of it. I have piles of literature that supports my view and would gladly post it. As long as others reading this take both views into consideration when checking them I'm happy.
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