gday guys its been ages since ive been on here i gave up on the little yella peral for a while when i found i have to once again put aother set of main bearings through it!
the engine has hardly been driven and soem how it now has 75 thou end float, i only noticed it because i pulled out the engine to reseal the sump. upon doing so i noticed a funny scoring on the timing cover whcih happend to be the timing gear rubbing on it!
i am running a celica box with a crs bellhousing, has anyone knowen of these to have differnt length input shafts or something that could hav been loading up the crank constantly and also the clutch is extemely heavy but surely that would wear the thrust bearing so badly so quickly, no!?
any feedback would be greaqt guys want to get the car sorted while im not thinking about tortching the poor old girl.
cheers
ben
excesive end float on new engine
Started by
_uglybob_
, Feb 13 2009 09:53 AM
17 replies to this topic
#2
rodomo
-
- Members
-
- 18,056 posts
To advertise here, call 13TORANA
- Name:R - O - B Dammit!
- Location:Way out west of Melbourne Awstraylya
- Joined: 10-December 05
Posted 13 February 2009 - 10:00 AM
Some 202 cranks were soft in the thrust area.
My ex Mrs HQ when you pushed the clutch, the crank would move forward and the tips of the flywheel bolts, poking through the crank flange, would hit the back of the block.
My ex Mrs HQ when you pushed the clutch, the crank would move forward and the tips of the flywheel bolts, poking through the crank flange, would hit the back of the block.
#3
_gtrtorana_
_gtrtorana_
-
- Guests
Posted 13 February 2009 - 11:50 AM
Excessive end float on my crank was the reason I had to build a new engine. Mine had/has a pretty heavy clutch on it and I believe that this was the reason my thrust ring wore thin. Does the very tip of your input shaft look like it has been pushing hard up against crank?
I have also heared this. I also remember reading somewhere that you can mod your engine block so has a direct oil feel the thrust area rather than having it splash fed.Some 202 cranks were soft in the thrust area
#4
_uglybob_
_uglybob_
-
- Guests
Posted 19 February 2009 - 05:01 PM
ok well its a blue motor crank if that makes any difference, would suck though if it is a case of the crank material being soft!
the input shaft doesnt look like it has been rubbing and i havent even had a good look at the spigot bush, i guess i was just mainly wanting to know whether or not this is a common problem with 202's with heavy clutches? might have to look into that oiling onto thrust bearing.
so tired of pulling this dam motor apart but some have worse luck i spose.
anyone got anything extra to add with the thrust bearing oil modd??
cheers guys for your feedback
the input shaft doesnt look like it has been rubbing and i havent even had a good look at the spigot bush, i guess i was just mainly wanting to know whether or not this is a common problem with 202's with heavy clutches? might have to look into that oiling onto thrust bearing.
so tired of pulling this dam motor apart but some have worse luck i spose.
anyone got anything extra to add with the thrust bearing oil modd??
cheers guys for your feedback
#5
_Squarepants_
_Squarepants_
-
- Guests
Posted 19 February 2009 - 06:33 PM
I hate to point out the obvious, but did you check the crank float when you assembled the engine?
If there is no excessive wear on the thrust main bearing the I'd be tempted to say your crank is the culprit.
I'm no expert but I can't see how the clutch makes any difference as it only provides radial loads, not longitudinal. Perhaps the bevel cut gears in the gearbox push the input shaft forward forward, I don't know. In which case you'd see the evidence on the spigot bush or on the end of the input shaft.
What about the cam gear? If you're still running bevel cut timing gears, could they be pushing the crank back if the cam bearings are a bit sticky? I'm just grasping at straws now, like I said, I'm no expert, I'm just trying to provide another veiwpoint on the issue.
If there is no excessive wear on the thrust main bearing the I'd be tempted to say your crank is the culprit.
I'm no expert but I can't see how the clutch makes any difference as it only provides radial loads, not longitudinal. Perhaps the bevel cut gears in the gearbox push the input shaft forward forward, I don't know. In which case you'd see the evidence on the spigot bush or on the end of the input shaft.
What about the cam gear? If you're still running bevel cut timing gears, could they be pushing the crank back if the cam bearings are a bit sticky? I'm just grasping at straws now, like I said, I'm no expert, I'm just trying to provide another veiwpoint on the issue.
#6
_NZ Toranaman_
_NZ Toranaman_
-
- Guests
Posted 19 February 2009 - 07:13 PM
I mentioned this elsewhere on another thread but it is common on manuals that have alot of city miles on them as people ride the clutches which puts load on them.
You can get them rebuilt or just buy a new crank, but try and buy an auto crank as the wear is usually alot less.
You can get them rebuilt or just buy a new crank, but try and buy an auto crank as the wear is usually alot less.
#7
ls2lxhatch
-
- Members
-
- 5,335 posts
- Location:Perth
- Car:LX Hatch
- Joined: 29-May 06
Posted 19 February 2009 - 11:58 PM
I'm no expert but I can't see how the clutch makes any difference as it only provides radial loads, not longitudinal.
The thrust bearing that operates the clutch pressure plate pushes the crank forward. Some people leave their car in neutral and their foot off the clutch at traffic lights to reduce wear.
#8
TerrA LX
-
- Members
-
- 14,241 posts
Fulcrum Fixture
- Location:Sid 'n' knee
- Joined: 31-May 06
Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:12 AM
^I had a 253 that was missing half of a timing cover bolt (ground down by the harmonic balancer) due to this.
#9
_Squarepants_
_Squarepants_
-
- Guests
Posted 20 February 2009 - 03:31 PM
Rogee! I can picture that now, thanks.
#10
_uglybob_
_uglybob_
-
- Guests
Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:17 PM
well this motor is on it third build and i have set the end float twice to 0.006" maybe 7 but this last time the motor was built by a very reputable engine builder so i would have though he would have the end float mickey mouse and know what a cactus crank looks like but then again you never know for sure i guess, maybe he/ who built it, had a good root the night before..
im running straight cut timing gears so that cant be an issue, and the engine may have done 200km since the full rebuild so its not like it has had heaps of city driving but having said that i looked at the clutch and its fairly buggerd i obviously ride it too hard to get it up the drive way into the garage (its not a fun thing to do especially in the dark!) but i have a new clutch now any way and it ceramic so no way am i going to be doing that anymore. but i am leaning towards the clutch being the issue i just didnt think i should wear quite this fast but obviously it is so ill be looking into oiling the thrust bearing area as mentioned before.
thanks for the feed back ill put some photies up of the thrust bearing tomora
cheers
ben
im running straight cut timing gears so that cant be an issue, and the engine may have done 200km since the full rebuild so its not like it has had heaps of city driving but having said that i looked at the clutch and its fairly buggerd i obviously ride it too hard to get it up the drive way into the garage (its not a fun thing to do especially in the dark!) but i have a new clutch now any way and it ceramic so no way am i going to be doing that anymore. but i am leaning towards the clutch being the issue i just didnt think i should wear quite this fast but obviously it is so ill be looking into oiling the thrust bearing area as mentioned before.
thanks for the feed back ill put some photies up of the thrust bearing tomora
cheers
ben
#11
_2runa_
_2runa_
-
- Guests
Posted 20 February 2009 - 08:12 PM
Hi guys
engine thrust bearing failure can be due to high clutch pressures, usually related to performance clutches with high spring pressures being installed. Riding
the clutch can also cause thrust bearing failure on new engines. You must also ensure the clutch has adequate free play. hope this helps
engine thrust bearing failure can be due to high clutch pressures, usually related to performance clutches with high spring pressures being installed. Riding
the clutch can also cause thrust bearing failure on new engines. You must also ensure the clutch has adequate free play. hope this helps
#12
_gtrtorana_
_gtrtorana_
-
- Guests
Posted 20 February 2009 - 08:13 PM
I am looking though all my paperwork now to try and find the info for you. I'm pretty sure I got it from this forum but it was about 3 years ago.anyone got anything extra to add with the thrust bearing oil modd??
#13
_2runa_
_2runa_
-
- Guests
Posted 20 February 2009 - 08:37 PM
A simple modification to the upper thrust bearing may be beneficial in some engines. Install the upper thrust bearing in the block to determine which thrust face is toward the rear of the engine. Using a small, fine tooth, flat file, increase the amount of chamfer to approximately .040" (1 mm) on the inside diameter edge of the bearing parting line. Carefully file at the centrally located oil groove and stroke the file at an angle toward the rear thrust face only. It is very important not to contact the bearing surface with the end of the file. The resulting enlarged ID chamfer will allow pressurized engine oil from the pre-existing groove to reach the loaded thrust face. This additional source of oiling will reach the loaded thrust face without passing through the bearing clearance first (direct oiling). Since there may be a load against the rear thrust face, oil flow should be restricted by that load and there should not be a noticeable loss of oil pressure. This modification is not a guaranteed "cure-all". However, the modification should help if all other conditions, such as surface finish, alignment, cleanliness and loading are within required limits.
Edited by 2runa, 20 February 2009 - 08:39 PM.
#14
_SableMet7/73_
_SableMet7/73_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 February 2009 - 12:03 PM
What about the cam gear? If you're still running bevel cut timing gears, could they be pushing the crank back if the cam bearings are a bit sticky?
Not being picky, but with bevel/helical cut gears the cam would more than
likely be pulled forward/back under load rather than the crank.
Hence the availability of cam end float bearings coz theres only the ring
behind the cam gear held in by 2 phillips screws & have seen some wear
on the back of these from the front camshaft bearing journal.
On the thrust flange, sorry not a solution, but bought a blue 3.3 cheap from
a bloke & got the sump off & crank out at home & the thrust flange was rooted
then noticed the auto flexplate had been fitted backwards. Dohhhhh!! new crank.
Cheers J
#15
_Drag lc_
_Drag lc_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 February 2009 - 12:36 PM
i have had helicel cut cam gear walk off the cam before came off about 1/4" and engine coffed and spluttered to a hault untill i turned dizzy then went again.
#16
_uglybob_
_uglybob_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:55 PM
ok so i finally got m\y act together and had a good look at the crank ie pulled no.7 main cap off and found that the crank thrust face is totaly cactus 70 odd thou infact nice little step in it. its a blue motor crank, was i just unlucky to get one of these soft cranks?? having said that the bearing is fairly black, shes got pretty hot, so much for this ripper oil system on it. not happy at all. o well
#17
_NZ Toranaman_
_NZ Toranaman_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 February 2009 - 10:09 AM
I figured as much... I'm told they can be rebuilt but dunno what pricenor just go buy another from a wrecker who you can inspect them first.
Another thing to try and get is a standard grind so that way you only polish it instead of grinding oversize too much.
Graham
Another thing to try and get is a standard grind so that way you only polish it instead of grinding oversize too much.
Graham
#18
_2runa_
_2runa_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 February 2009 - 10:44 AM
There is no oil pressure to the thrust and as my last post shampher (sp.) the contact area of the main bearing so there is a positive path of oil to the thrust good luck.
Edited by 2runa, 24 February 2009 - 10:45 AM.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
