Just curious as to where others have surge tank and lift pump located.....pics would help
Surge tank and lift pump
Started by
_wardy_
, Jul 22 2009 08:40 PM
13 replies to this topic
#2
_Squarepants_
_Squarepants_
-
- Guests
Posted 22 July 2009 - 09:02 PM
Most people put them in the boot, but that's illegal for a street car. Pump can go under the car near the fuel tank.
The other options are put a dodgy surge tank in front of the main tank or mount it in the engine bay (looks messy).
I plan to put mine in the boot with a fake wall in front of it so Plodd can't see it.
The other options are put a dodgy surge tank in front of the main tank or mount it in the engine bay (looks messy).
I plan to put mine in the boot with a fake wall in front of it so Plodd can't see it.
#3
_wardy_
_wardy_
-
- Guests
Posted 22 July 2009 - 09:12 PM
Thanks ,,, Ive gotta get through engineer to so i may have to make 1 for under the car?? will keep the thinking cap on.
#4
_mumstaxi_
_mumstaxi_
-
- Guests
Posted 22 July 2009 - 09:22 PM
Got some pic's of my Surge tank set-up.
To be legal in QLD and avoid any fuel smell entering the cabin (caused by having rubber fuel lines that "breathe" in the boot area) i used a custom style "approvable" (as in, i can get Surge Tank ,engineer/Blue Plate certified) type of set up.
This tank allows all rubber lines to be "outside" the boot area, but also allow use of a large vertical tank,without trying to fit it under the car.
You do have to cut a hole (around 60mm Dia) in the boot floor for the pipe's to protrude.
As you can see all inlet/outlets are on the bottom,and it has different lenth tubes inside the tank that raise to different hights, to allow draining or filling at certain levels of fuel within the surge tank itself.
Pic
In boot..
Under car..
MT
To be legal in QLD and avoid any fuel smell entering the cabin (caused by having rubber fuel lines that "breathe" in the boot area) i used a custom style "approvable" (as in, i can get Surge Tank ,engineer/Blue Plate certified) type of set up.
This tank allows all rubber lines to be "outside" the boot area, but also allow use of a large vertical tank,without trying to fit it under the car.
You do have to cut a hole (around 60mm Dia) in the boot floor for the pipe's to protrude.
As you can see all inlet/outlets are on the bottom,and it has different lenth tubes inside the tank that raise to different hights, to allow draining or filling at certain levels of fuel within the surge tank itself.
Pic
In boot..
Under car..
MT
#6
_the gts_
_the gts_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:08 AM
very clever idea, would be good to hear an engineers opinion on this
do you have a drawing or dimensions for this mumstaxi?
do you have a drawing or dimensions for this mumstaxi?
Edited by the gts, 23 July 2009 - 01:10 AM.
#7
_doucmyuc_
_doucmyuc_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:33 AM
Good idea with the setup above!! Just curious, whats the 4th bung/line there for? Love the idea how it feeds underneath the car!
1 for fuel supply, 2nd for fuel line/rail, 3rd for overflow. 4th has got me stumped :S
The only think i would have done personally was looked at a better breather/overflow system. Normally to release heat and excess pressure buildup you have the overflow/breather line feeding directly from the top. If the tank heats up with excess air pressure or fuel temps it could casue trouble with feed pressures and overlfow speed. But i think unless your going to be flowing big amounts of fuel i think your setup should be fine!!!
I would also look at cutting open the stock tank and wedling in baffles with one way gates into the tank!
1 for fuel supply, 2nd for fuel line/rail, 3rd for overflow. 4th has got me stumped :S
The only think i would have done personally was looked at a better breather/overflow system. Normally to release heat and excess pressure buildup you have the overflow/breather line feeding directly from the top. If the tank heats up with excess air pressure or fuel temps it could casue trouble with feed pressures and overlfow speed. But i think unless your going to be flowing big amounts of fuel i think your setup should be fine!!!
I would also look at cutting open the stock tank and wedling in baffles with one way gates into the tank!
#9
_mumstaxi_
_mumstaxi_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 July 2009 - 10:43 AM
very clever idea, would be good to hear an engineers opinion on this
do you have a drawing or dimensions for this mumstaxi?
Fully Engineer approved (Blue Mod plated in QLD)
Still have will my sketch/drawing that the i gave to the place that made it if you want dimensions.
Good idea with the setup above!! Just curious, whats the 4th bung/line there for? Love the idea how it feeds underneath the car!
1 for fuel supply, 2nd for fuel line/rail, 3rd for overflow. 4th has got me stumped :S
The only think i would have done personally was looked at a better breather/overflow system. Normally to release heat and excess pressure buildup you have the overflow/breather line feeding directly from the top. If the tank heats up with excess air pressure or fuel temps it could casue trouble with feed pressures and overlfow speed. But i think unless your going to be flowing big amounts of fuel i think your setup should be fine!!!
I would also look at cutting open the stock tank and wedling in baffles with one way gates into the tank!
All the feed pipes rise to different hights,"Inside" the surge tank, the return back to the main car fuel tank has a pipe that goes almost to the roof of the surge tank (about 10mm from the top) ,so the surge tank always remains full, any air sits at the top and is forced back to the main tank, and can vent from the car fuel tank as per normal, the pipe inside that feeds the EFI pump is cut off flush with the base of the surge tank.
The hot fuel returning from the fuel rail, will rise to the top of the surge tank, and will get forced down the "overflow" (back to the main car fuel tank) as new fuel is constantly forced in from the lift pump
The tank was made tall but skinny to assist all of the above.
I calculated that with my main EFI pump flowing at full capacity/consumption over a 1/4mile run would only use/supply about a litre of fuel (with zero return from fuel rail), so the surge tank is made to hold around 3-4 litres, with such a large fuel storage capacity within the surge tank itself, extra baffels within the main tank are not needed to prevent the risk of fuel starvation.
The 4 lines are as follows....
1 Fuel feed "to" High pressure EFI pump
2 Fuel supply "from" Lift Pump
3 Fuel Return back "from" INJ Rail
4 Overflow back "to" Main car fuel tank
MT
#10
_Chamois hatch_
_Chamois hatch_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 July 2009 - 07:05 PM
Are you running the standard fuel tank or a drop tank? i just finished my fuel system, and have fitted the surge tank under the spare wheel cutout of the drop tank. can post some pics tomorrow if you nee them....
Edited by Chamois hatch, 23 July 2009 - 07:07 PM.
#12
_Bomber Watson_
_Bomber Watson_
-
- Guests
Posted 25 July 2009 - 06:24 PM
Dumb question, but if this is accurate:
Then would it be legal to run fuel into the tank with braided hoses, going through the floor with bulkhead fittings and jic fittings on all ends???
Cheers.
To be legal in QLD and avoid any fuel smell entering the cabin (caused by having rubber fuel lines that "breathe" in the boot area) i used a custom style "approvable" (as in, i can get Surge Tank ,engineer/Blue Plate certified) type of set up.
Then would it be legal to run fuel into the tank with braided hoses, going through the floor with bulkhead fittings and jic fittings on all ends???
Cheers.
#13
_mumstaxi_
_mumstaxi_
-
- Guests
Posted 25 July 2009 - 08:32 PM
Bomber, unfortunately braiding is not air-tight ,and so does little more to seal in liquid/vapour, than the rubber hose just by itself.
My engineer has been through that exact situation with my mates 400hp twin turbo WRX years ago, i know it sounds wrong but even the braided fuel line still bleeds the fuel smell, he had the hose expert guys out, used the best/most expensive hoses etc, and in the end had to run it under the car to stop the smell.
I would imagine a suitable hose "must" exist somewhere, but not apparently in the "average joe" automotive industry ,maybe ask NASA ?
A lot of people reading this will not understand that a hose that does not leak fuel, can still leak vapours, but the proof is in the pudding, you leave the car locked up in the sun for a few hours, and when you return, the cabin stinks of fuel so bad you get a headache, (ask anyone with a surge tank/fuel hose in the boot) yet you have no fuel leaks at all.
I must also mention, i have seen guys that have, in boot surge tanks "approved" (with rubber lines), but ive also seen engine conversions approved with vent to atmosphere breathers/blow off valves etc, and then end up getting defected on the streets, but if you think about the consequences of having fuel vapours build up in the cabin, it does not take a genius to work out thats not a good thing, regardless of legal requirements anyway.
One alternative i thought of that would work, is to use copper pipe (or other metal/alloy etc) and braise fittings (such as gas/lpg fittings or other) on the ends that will allow attachment without having any rubber fuel hose in the cabin/boot area's, or enclose the whole lot (surge tank ,hoses) in a sealed compartment that vents to outside the car ?
MT
My engineer has been through that exact situation with my mates 400hp twin turbo WRX years ago, i know it sounds wrong but even the braided fuel line still bleeds the fuel smell, he had the hose expert guys out, used the best/most expensive hoses etc, and in the end had to run it under the car to stop the smell.
I would imagine a suitable hose "must" exist somewhere, but not apparently in the "average joe" automotive industry ,maybe ask NASA ?
A lot of people reading this will not understand that a hose that does not leak fuel, can still leak vapours, but the proof is in the pudding, you leave the car locked up in the sun for a few hours, and when you return, the cabin stinks of fuel so bad you get a headache, (ask anyone with a surge tank/fuel hose in the boot) yet you have no fuel leaks at all.
I must also mention, i have seen guys that have, in boot surge tanks "approved" (with rubber lines), but ive also seen engine conversions approved with vent to atmosphere breathers/blow off valves etc, and then end up getting defected on the streets, but if you think about the consequences of having fuel vapours build up in the cabin, it does not take a genius to work out thats not a good thing, regardless of legal requirements anyway.
One alternative i thought of that would work, is to use copper pipe (or other metal/alloy etc) and braise fittings (such as gas/lpg fittings or other) on the ends that will allow attachment without having any rubber fuel hose in the cabin/boot area's, or enclose the whole lot (surge tank ,hoses) in a sealed compartment that vents to outside the car ?
MT
#14
ozyozyozy
-
- Members
-
- 953 posts
Forum Fixture
- Location:perth
- Joined: 13-February 08
Posted 26 July 2009 - 02:54 PM
when it comes to the fuel smell the best hose to use is the teflon lined braided hose. there is no rubber just a plastic style liner inside a braided cover, works very well, earls and speedflow make it. if using unleaded fuel with rubber hose you will always get some smell as the chemicals in the fuel break down the elastometers in the rubber hose which leads to the smell. great idea on the swirl pot mumstaxi. iv also seen people make a swirl pot that the fuel pump is mounted inside the pot, it only had 2 or 3 hose ports one in. one return to tank and one to engine. very compact design, everthing was in one unit, sorry dont have pics of it, only briefly saw it. i spoke to an engineer years ago, he was going allow fuel system in the boot provided the parcel shelf and panel rear behind seat was sealed and made into a kinda firewall.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
